In need of help eeek.

[cherry-bon]

Please can anyone advise.
I started my apple wine about 42 hrs ago.
I made a mistake in not pouring some of the boiling water onto the apples. So was luke warm really. They did seem to be fizzing a bit the next day but wasn’t much going on. And just checked and nothing much occurring.
I understand that you are to add the yeast etc once they have nicely started foaming, anything from 8hrs or longer.
Do I need to put them in a warmer location?
Or was that little fizzing the best that would happen and I should now go ahead with the yeast?
And lastly….Campden tablet, do I add that at first racking?
Thanks

 

[BigDaveK]

Campden tablets (kmeta) is usually added to the must 24 hours (+/-) prior to adding yeast to kill wild yeast and other things. If boiling water (or very hot) is used the tablets can be skipped - temps above 140 or so will kill most unwanted organisms. The tablets are generally added again when fermentation is complete and SG is below 1.00.

I'm confused about the "fizzing" and also "pouring some of the boiling water".
The "fizzing" - did you make a yeast starter? I usually just add yeast to warm water with a bit of sugar and it's foaming in an hour or so.

 

[cherry-bon]

Thanks Big Dave. You are most helpful.
Fizzing is probably or the right word. I am following a recipe that says after first 8 hrs or longer it should start foaming and then it’s time to add yeast. I’m waiting for foaming, but nothing is happening so maybe I should just add yeast etc today.
There is a lot of conflicting info out there which I guess is normal as it’s opinions. But most I’ve read says add Campden at racking time. It’s a bit puzzling for me haha

 

[cherry-bon]

*not I meant

Thanks Big Dave. You are most helpful.
Fizzing is probably or the right word. I am following a recipe that says after first 8 hrs or longer it should start foaming and then it’s time to add yeast. I’m waiting for foaming, but nothing is happening so maybe I should just add yeast etc today.
There is a lot of conflicting info out there which I guess is normal as it’s opinions. But most I’ve read says add Campden at racking time. It’s a bit puzzling for me haha

*not I mean

 

[cherry-bon]

Also (sorry to be a pest)
The recipe has pectic enzyme and wine tannin listed in ingredients but does not tell you when to add, I think it’s just been forgotten when the page was made.
And also mentions potassium and doesn’t say when to add that either

 

[cherry-bon]

Sorry yes I havnt added the Campden tablet so I’m concerned now to leave it another 24hrs with a Campden tablet in it, before adding yeast, tannin, nutrient and pectolase.

 

[Rice_Guy]

first welcome to Wine Making Talk, ,,, NEXT, you are from where you can get Bulmers and Hennesy ,,, you have good apples to ferment. (Yes I make cider and apple wine, you have me drooling.)

The recipe that you are working from has steps in it like some of the 1935 recipe cards that the grand parents handed down. The old methods with boiling water and wait for foam work (don't need to add yeast). Take this as style, MODERN/ measure everything ~ vs ~ TRADITIONAL/ taste or feel and react to the taste.
* I use tannin in many of my wines, this includes white grape juices, rhubarb, strawberry etc. The reason is that tannin adds long (soft tannin) flavor notes and it gives shelf life which allows on to enjoy five year old Bulmers. The US has mainly table/ grocery store apples that are low tannin and aren't good vintage wines. The earlier you add tannin the better it protects flavor.
* Pectic enzyme, add it as early as you can. I press juice which gets pectase added and then frozen. The reason is that once alcohol starts forming the enzyme isn't as efficient and you need more. However lots of ciders have a cloudy look so in the scheme of things this is just cosmetic. Pectic enzyme doesn't like heat so add after boiling water.
* Campden tablets/ potassium metabisulphite; This is reducing wild yeast much the same as grandpa's recipes which add boiling water (ie either or). Traditional English cider would let the wild yeast grow and skip the boiling water or modern Campden tablets. I add Campden at the same time as pectase and the freeze. This year for laughs I have a traditional red apple which I am letting ferment with the yeast God put in the juice, hope it works as well as dry yeast.
* Percent alcohol; I add honey or sugar to get to 1.080 or 1.090 (10 - 12%ABV). A wine is more stable than cider which starts at 1.050 (6% ABV). You started by adding boiling water so you should have some sugar or honey added. Do you have a hydrometer to measure sugar?
* You didn't ask but I like sweeter wines with long tannin and acid flavors. I age them about 9 months and then sweeten with frozen apple concentrate from the grocery. Young drinks have live yeast which can referment making CO2 so the advice is add potassium sorbate or pasteurize like a cider.
* Pressing juice from the apple; Mom and grandpa would do a process which made a mush (pounding with a 10cm wood) and then squeeze (by hand) juice out of a pillow or flour sack. I freeze pails of apples which makes them really soft and then press the juice out with a nylon filter bag from the wine shop (about 80% juice yield). At some time you need to get the solids out. French cider will sweat which make the apple soft and increases juice yield.

Good luck on the ferment and have fun, again traditional methods work.

 

[BigDaveK]

Also (sorry to be a pest)
The recipe has pectic enzyme and wine tannin listed in ingredients but does not tell you when to add, I think it’s just been forgotten when the page was made.
And also mentions potassium and doesn’t say when to add that either

You're not a pest. Ask all the questions you want.

I was about to type a long response and @Rice_Guy beat me to it. (Thank you! ) Cherry-bon don't hesitate asking questions.

 

[cherry-bon]

first welcome to Wine Making Talk, ,,, NEXT, you are from where you can get Bulmers and Hennesy ,,, you have good apples to ferment. (Yes I make cider and apple wine, you have me drooling.)

The recipe that you are working from has steps in it like some of the 1935 recipe cards that the grand parents handed down. The old methods with boiling water and wait for foam work (don't need to add yeast). Take this as style, MODERN/ measure everything ~ vs ~ TRADITIONAL/ taste or feel and react to the taste.
* I use tannin in many of my wines, this includes white grape juices, rhubarb, strawberry etc. The reason is that tannin adds long (soft tannin) flavor notes and it gives shelf life which allows on to enjoy five year old Bulmers. The US has mainly table/ grocery store apples that are low tannin and aren't good vintage wines. The earlier you add tannin the better it protects flavor.
* Pectic enzyme, add it as early as you can. I press juice which gets pectase added and then frozen. The reason is that once alcohol starts forming the enzyme isn't as efficient and you need more. However lots of ciders have a cloudy look so in the scheme of things this is just cosmetic. Pectic enzyme doesn't like heat so add after boiling water.
* Campden tablets/ potassium metabisulphite; This is reducing wild yeast much the same as grandpa's recipes which add boiling water (ie either or). Traditional English cider would let the wild yeast grow and skip the boiling water or modern Campden tablets. I add Campden at the same time as pectase and the freeze. This year for laughs I have a traditional red apple which I am letting ferment with the yeast God put in the juice, hope it works as well as dry yeast.
* Percent alcohol; I add honey or sugar to get to 1.080 or 1.090 (10 - 12%ABV). A wine is more stable than cider which starts at 1.050 (6% ABV). You started by adding boiling water so you should have some sugar or honey added. Do you have a hydrometer to measure sugar?
* You didn't ask but I like sweeter wines with long tannin and acid flavors. I age them about 9 months and then sweeten with frozen apple concentrate from the grocery. Young drinks have live yeast which can referment making CO2 so the advice is add potassium sorbate or pasteurize like a cider.
* Pressing juice from the apple; Mom and grandpa would do a process which made a mush (pounding with a 10cm wood) and then squeeze (by hand) juice out of a pillow or flour sack. I freeze pails of apples which makes them really soft and then press the juice out with a nylon filter bag from the wine shop (about 80% juice yield). At some time you need to get the solids out. French cider will sweat which make the apple soft and increases juice yield.

Good luck on the ferment and have fun, again traditional methods work.

Rice Guy
Thanks for your lengthy response and the welcome.
Well I’m just going to go ahead and add all my bits and bobs now and pray that it will all be good.
We have an abundance of cookers. It’s sacrilege but you can’t give them away here in the UK because everyone has some or knows someone who does.
They are just for feeding the wild life now because I can’t do any more! Not enough man hours. Also have an abundant crab apple which I can do no more with either. Crab apple jelly done but next year I may try crab apple wine. It’s a sin what will go to waste.
Well I havnt touched a drop of alcohol for 2 weeks so seems strange to make wine now.
Thanks I like the old fashioned methods.

 

[cherry-bon]

And by the way I boiled the water somewhat but didn’t finish boiling it and didn’t pour it on boiling.

 

[cherry-bon]

You're not a pest. Ask all the questions you want.

I was about to type a long response and @Rice_Guy beat me to it. (Thank you! ) Cherry-bon don't hesitate asking questions.

Hahah thank you

 

[cherry-bon]

Ok so I’ve added a sachet of yeast which is for the amount I’m making.
Woke it up a bit first in cool boiled water.
Added
1 tsp yeast nutrient.
1/4 tsp wine tannin
1/2 tsp pectolase
1 tsp lemon juice (probably not needed as already had lemon juice in but hey ho).
It’s in a coolish dark room with the lid on tight…is lid on tight correct please?

 

[QuiQuog]

I started a batch of apple wine a couple weeks ago, except that I didn't crush my own. I bought the cider from a guy with a tank of it. The same process applies though. You're in a good place. You added everything you need at this moment. All you really have to do is pitch the yeast. You may increase your chances of success if you prepare a yeast starter before pitching, but you could also just sprinkle it on top. Speaking of yeast, what yeast are you using? It may affect the amount of nutrient you use, or the temperature you want to maintain.
To answer your question, don't put the lid on tight. You can put the lid aside for now and cover the fermenter with a towel or cloth. The yeast need oxegen at this point. You'll want to stir the must each day to work in more oxygen for the first few days. At a certain point you'll either snap on a lid and airlock and leave it alone, or rack it off the gross lees into a secondary vessel with an airlock and leave it alone.
But I have more questions for you. In your other post about apple wine, you mentioned that you don't have a hydrometer. This makes me wonder what else you may not have. Not because wine won't ferment without a hydrometer or other equipment, but just to see your plan moving forward.
1. What kind of vessel are you fermenting in? Plastic bucket, glass jar? Does the lid seal and have a hole for an airlock?
2. Racking cane and hose? Do your instructions say to rack into a secondary container partway through fermentation, or leave it in the fermenting vessel?

By the way, what is the volume of your must at the moment? It will decrease substantially when the solids settle out. You'll want the correct size vessel for clearing and/or aging.

 

[cherry-bon]

I started a batch of apple wine a couple weeks ago, except that I didn't crush my own. I bought the cider from a guy with a tank of it. The same process applies though. You're in a good place. You added everything you need at this moment. All you really have to do is pitch the yeast. You may increase your chances of success if you prepare a yeast starter before pitching, but you could also just sprinkle it on top. Speaking of yeast, what yeast are you using? It may affect the amount of nutrient you use, or the temperature you want to maintain.
To answer your question, don't put the lid on tight. You can put the lid aside for now and cover the fermenter with a towel or cloth. The yeast need oxegen at this point. You'll want to stir the must each day to work in more oxygen for the first few days. At a certain point you'll either snap on a lid and airlock and leave it alone, or rack it off the gross lees into a secondary vessel with an airlock and leave it alone.
But I have more questions for you. In your other post about apple wine, you mentioned that you don't have a hydrometer. This makes me wonder what else you may not have. Not because wine won't ferment without a hydrometer or other equipment, but just to see your plan moving forward.
1. What kind of vessel are you fermenting in? Plastic bucket, glass jar? Does the lid seal and have a hole for an airlock?
2. Racking cane and hose? Do your instructions say to rack into a secondary container partway through fermentation, or leave it in the fermenting vessel?

By the way, what is the volume of your must at the moment? It will decrease substantially when the solids settle out. You'll want the correct size vessel for clearing and/or aging.

Hi QuiQuog
Thanks for taking an interest.
I ran to take lid off and I’ve put a brand new tea towel over it
It’s a big plastic fermenting bucket (food grade and for the purpose).
I have 2 glass Demi johns which need sterilisation when time comes close.
A siphon
Long plastic spoon
2 air locks
2 rubber bungs

Yeast was just a packet of dry yeast with exact amount in. To be honest I would have liked to know the exact type it was as I’m a bit of a detail person. The packet said universal wine yeast.
I would have liked to use Lalvin QA23
(Just from a tiny bit of research).
But because I was just a newbie I bought from one of our household chains that have a good selection of brewing products. Cheap and cheerful kind of.
I don’t have a hydrometer which I’ve been advised to get.
Oh and also I screwed up with the straining bag. I was using 4 x veg reuse bags which I use for jam making. They take about a kilo of fruit. But when I put all 4 in the fermenting bucket they wouldn’t sit flat on the bottom due to it been narrow. And then the fruit wasn’t all in liquid so I had to scrap that idea and just empty all the bags in. So when I come to straining it will be a chew on.
I will stir twice a day for however long it takes 1-2 weeks, for foaming to subside, then will strain and put in first demi John (strain again if cloudy).
Then I think wait for most of activity to stop again and siphon into 2nd demi John.

Am I right to put fermenting bucket in a dark room? It’s coolest but not super cold.

I made a gallon but I did have a bit extra water in and then the tiny bit of water I woke the yeast up in so it’s now at 10 litres marker.

I hope your apple wine is a success!
I’m not a fan of white wines, I’m more a red but just wanted to do something different with our apples, rather than crumbles

 

[Rice_Guy]

We have an abundance of cookers (apples). Also an abundant crab apple which I can do no more with either. Crab apple

* crabs are not created equal, I found a wild tree which has about the same tannin flavor as Kingston Black or Frequin Rouge, but for the past years I have used a crab that the city does for decoration, (at 5% crab/ 95% cookers) ,,, and then again there are some strong taste hard tannin spitters which are planted at church as well as some with no flavor.
Concentrated English tannic cider juice is available here in the states, this makes it possible to tweak the flavors when back sweetening.
* a term to learn "climacteric" this refers to fruits which will continue to ripen after being picked. Apples, tomatoes and bananas are examples. ,,, My apple juice has become less acid with september about pH 3.0 and a week ago 3.8. I would never put lemon in early juice but blend early and late juice to get under pH 3.5. Grandpa was traditional, ,,,, sorry but I use a pH meter.
* I aim for 10C fermentation which means it lives in the car garage and will take weeks to finish.

 

[cherry-bon]

Ok. You really know your stuff. I have no idea on varieties but has given me the idea to try and find out.
I’ve probably gone over board on the lemon juice
I love that you remember what your grandpa did and are following in his footsteps