Juice Concentrate for Must...

[Jbu60]

Been coming across more and more references about winemakers adding juice concentrate to their must (pressed grapes) in order to boost color, body, and mouthfeel. I've never used juice concentrate, never made wine with a kit, always just used grapes. But, I do want to try adding juice concentrate to my must.

So my question is this: As I go out and look for juice concentrate to buy, is it really true that not all kits are the same, that you get what you pay for, that the more expensive kits are better quality, or could I get the effect that I'm looking for with a cheap kit? (I'd only be adding a relatively small amount of juice concentrate to my must, keeping in mind the increase to brix and all that).

 

[Bmd2k1]

From my brief 3+ years of vintnering -- I've found in general ya get what ya pay for. That being said -- I have found that the Finer Wine kits tend to yield a very good quality wine -- and they are Not the most expensive kits out there.

I've got nothing to add re: adding other juice concentrates to kit vinos...as I've never done that.

There's another longgg thread re: tweaking cheaper kits that's full of great info.

As always YMMV & Good Luck...

Cheers!

 

[cmason1957]

I'm not sure a "wine kit" is what you are looking for help with color, body and/or mouthfeel with grapes. When I think wine kit, I think of wineexpert, Finer Wine kits (which aren't available in Canada), RJSpagnals, Costco kits. None of these would be candidates to add to grapes. With most grape wines (particularly red grape wines), you will be encouraged to put those wine through Malolactic Fermentation, wine kits are not candidates for MLF.

I'm not even sure that juice concentrate will help with any of those things. The color comes from the skins (in most cases). If someone can point to some place to read about this, great.

But no matter what I think or anyone else thinks, in the end, it's your wine do what you want to with it. But, adding juice to grapes isn't something I would think is a good idea.

 

[Jbu60]

wine kits are not candidates for MLF.

I don't think this is true. Is there something about juice concentrate that will prevent malolactic fermentation?

 

[Shurt1073]

I don't think this is true. Is there something about juice concentrate that will prevent malolactic fermentation?

Wines made from grapes respond best to MLF. The main reason is that the bacteria work better with a small amount of grape solids to feed on in addition to the malic acid. Wine kits do not need MLF because they are formulated with malic acids. We recommend against using MLF with any wine kits because it reduces the acid levels too far and leaves the wine unbalanced.

The above is from an article I read just 1-2 days ago and cmason1957 is spot on. MLF is not recommended for wine kits. I didn't know the MLF process and in several forums the guys are talking about it so it was time for me to look it up and read. This MLF not for kits was one of the first things I saw and since I only make wine kits its a process I'll never do but its interesting.

 

[Ohio Bob]

I don't think this is true. Is there something about juice concentrate that will prevent malolactic fermentation?

I believe it is true. The kit manufacturer optimizes all the ingredients, packet A, packet B, etc. they do not include MLF ingredients.

Juice concentrate is capable of MLF, as long as there is no trace of any sorbate.

 

[Jbu60]

I believe it is true. The kit manufacturer optimizes all the ingredients, packet A, packet B, etc. they do not include MLF ingredients.

Juice concentrate is capable of MLF, as long as there is no trace of any sorbate.

If I buy a kit, its only for the juice concentrate, and I'd technically have no need for packets or kit instructions. Hopefully the juice concentrate is 100% juice, i.e. no sorbate, etc.

So, it is true that juice concentrate is not a candidate for MLF but that it is capable of MLF. Huh.

 

[sour_grapes]

Here is my $0.02 on the MLF question.

Conventional wisdom is that (most) kit wines are not good candidates for MLF because the manufacturer uses malic acid in balancing the acidity. If you perform MLF, you will screw up that balance. The resultant wine will likely be flabby. (This is the view espoused by Tim Vandergrift.)

However, if you are talking about just punching up your must with an addition of concentrate, then I think this problem is not terribly relevant. The acid in the kit will be only a small part of the total acid in your concoction.

P.S.: Some people raise concerns that synthetic malic acid is used in kits, which contains both the left- and right-handed enantiomers of malic acid. The MLB can only eat one of these enantiomers. But I don't see that as a problem. So what if there are some acids that the bugs can't eat?

 

[cmason1957]

Wine Kits Juices might go through MLF, might not. They are balanced to be at the correct acid level once made to the correct volume. They are balanced with man-made malic acid. Malolactic bacterica cannot convert man-made malic acid to lactic acid.

 

[Jbu60]

If this is true what’s the reason for it? Full body reds require MLF. Why shoot yourself in the foot?

 

[crushday]

Been coming across more and more references about winemakers adding juice concentrate to their must (pressed grapes) in order to boost color, body, and mouthfeel.

I know your question is about juice concentrate, but what you're really asking is how to increase color, body and mouthfeel.

Since you're making wine with grapes, why not try a Saignée style? Saignée (“sohn-yay”) means “to bleed,” and it is a method that involves “bleeding” off a portion of red wine juice after it's been in contact with the skins and seeds.

By bleeding off 15-20% of the juice it will increase color, body and mouthfeel and, you'll have an early drinking Rosé. Two for one - slam dunk! I did this last year with a couple of my red wines. After crush, I let the skins sit on the juice for 2 hours before bleeding off 20% and had excellent results. I'm planning on doing this with all of my red grapes this year.

BTW - I tried what you're asking about four years ago with undesirable results. In fact, that wine is what drove me deep into ONLY making wine from grapes.

 

[Jbu60]

Thanks man, I tried this exact Saignée method last fall with California Pinot Noir and worked out well. Made a rose and beefed up the colour and body on the PN.

 

[winemaker81]

@Jbu50, in addition to Saignée, look at maceration enzymes such as Scottzyme Color Pro. These enzymes extract more of what is already in the grapes. While it doesn't matter in your situation, these also work well on skin packs that are included in kits.

With the exception of Grenache, which doesn't have much color to extract, IME Color Pro has produced inky dark wines from Merlot, Zinfandel, Cabernet Franc, Cabernet Sauvignon, Malbec, Petit Verdot, Tempranillo, Syrah, Petite Sirah, and Mourvedre.

I don't think this is true. Is there something about juice concentrate that will prevent malolactic fermentation?

AFAIK, no. MLF will work on kits that contain natural malic acid, but since the kits are already balanced, it messes with that (as has been mentioned). If a must has been adjusted with manmade malic acid, MLF will NOT work, as malolactic bacteria does not eat manmade malic acid.

Full body reds require MLF.

No. No wine requires MLF. If a wine does not contain a sufficient amount of natural malic acid, MLF will not occur. If a wine contains natural malic acid, MLF is NOT a requirement. It may occur spontaneously, or it may not, and the winemaker adding SO2 will inhibit it.

 

[sour_grapes]

If a must has been adjusted with manmade malic acid, MLF will NOT work, as malolactic bacteria does not eat manmade malic acid.

I believe that the MLB are able to eat 50% of the manmade malic acid. I.e., manmade malic is a racemic mixture, containing 50% of the L enantiomer, and 50% of the D-enantiomer. (Malic acid - Wikipedia) The bugs can only eat the L-enantiomer.

 

[winemaker81]

I believe that the MLB are able to eat 50% of the manmade malic acid. I.e., manmade malic is a racemic mixture, containing 50% of the L enantiomer, and 50% of the D-enantiomer. (Malic acid - Wikipedia) The bugs can only eat the L-enantiomer.

Hmmmm. I haven't heard that before, but will take your word on it.

 

[Jbu60]

No. No. No.

Yes, yes, yes.

 

[winemaker81]

Yes, yes, yes.

If you can produce a fact-based response to my comments, I'd love to see it.

 

[Jeriatric]

Hi OP,
What sort of wines are you making and what are you trying to achieve with the concentrate? Are you adding to finished wine or adding it to must to bump the sugar levels?
I would use concentrate made for chapitalizing/tiraging/sweetening sold to wineries. I have seen mainly white grape conc. that is made with muscat or sometimes varietals like Sauvignon Blanc. I feel like I've come across red conc. before but have never used it.
Im only guessing that wine kits use d-malic because it is much cheaper and wont drop crystals later. Making it a better choice for them to use to adjusting TA than tartaric. MLF bugs don't seem to cope with d-malic, so i guess if MLF does take off in wine kits it would be because of the l-malic present in grapes that they are made from.
Malic acid is used by grape vines, more when it is warm and water stressed. That is why in cooler regions malic acid is usually higher than in warm - hot growing regions same as higher in cooler years than in warm ones. I have seen red fruit come in with less than 0.5g/L of malic in hot climates and juice with 4g/L in cold regions.
I have no idea who the wine kits source from or what parameters they are looking for when they harvest. Or what processes they use to produce the concentrate. Would be keen on a getting a breakdown of acids/sugar and other info off the kits though.

 

[winemaker81]

Been coming across more and more references about winemakers adding juice concentrate to their must (pressed grapes) in order to boost color, body, and mouthfeel.

In re-reading the thread, it appears that adding concentrate will not produce the effect you're looking for. I expect the addition may have some positive effects, but pure concentrate reds tend to be lighter bodied than a grape wine. To make full bodied kits, it typically requires the addition of skin packs.

Here are a few techniques that haven't been mentioned:

Yeast -- choose a strain (or strains) that improves mouthfeel.

Fermentation oak -- improves color retention and preserves natural grape tannin.

Blending -- add 5% of a dark color grape to improve color (Petit Verdot and Petite Sirah work well for this).

Skin packs -- it just occurred to me that adding 1 or 2 skin packs to each 19-23 liters of wine will do about the same as Saignée.

 

[Jbu60]

I've generally been using all the recommendations folks have been listing with good results, i.e. yeast, oak, enzymes, blending, saignee, etc. Seems like the consensus here is that concentrates are not recommended. The info about synthetic malic is very interesting and convincing. Perhaps what i've heard in regards to professionals and other folks using concentrates are not the wine kit variety, but the concentrate that is sold to wineries that @Jeriatric mentions above. I assume these concentrates don't have the man-made malic acids, etc.