Kieselsol & Chitosan

[Chuck Rairdan]

While the wine normally clears amazingly fast, I've noticed the lees compacts with time, e.g., most sediment drops within 24 hours, but the lees level is noticeably lower at 7 days. I wait longer to rack as I lose less volume to the lees. YMMV

Good point, it does cake down pretty well with a little time

 

[wineview]

What is your go to yeast nutrient? There seem to be so many to choose from. Pre-ferment during fermentation….Ferm K Ferm O, it’s making my head hurt.

 

[winemaker81]

What is your go to yeast nutrient? There seem to be so many to choose from. Pre-ferment during fermentation….Ferm K Ferm O, it’s making my head hurt.

I use Fermax. Once the jar is gone, I will re-evaluate.

 

[wineview]

I use Fermax. Once the jar is gone, I will re-evaluate.

Fermaid O seems to be a re-tooled natural version of Fermaid K.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

What is your go to yeast nutrient? There seem to be so many to choose from. Pre-ferment during fermentation….Ferm K Ferm O, it’s making my head hurt.

For rehydrating yeast: GoFerm (or its updated version, GoFerm protect evolution)
During fermentation: Fermaid-O. 20g/hL at 3 brix drop and another 20g/hL at 1/3 brix drop. I guess I might adjust the Fermaid adds if I knew YAN was very high or very low, but this rule of thumb has served me well in my brief winemaking career to date...

 

[heatherd]

After adding Chitosan how long do most of you wait to add Kieselsol? I've read opinions from 45 minutes to two days.

The directions state:
"Description

---

Super-Kleer K.C. is a two stage wine and beer clarifying kit. Contains two pre-mixed pouches of kieselsol and chitosan. The fining porocess works by creating both strong negative and strong positive charges in the wine, which allow for larger yeast clumping and faster clearing. Works great in wine kits, grape and fruit wines, and alcohol mashes. 65 mL (2.2 fl oz) packet.

Directions: Add kieselsol (packet D1) to carboy (5-6G/19-23L) of wine, etc. Gently stir. Dissolve chitosan (packet D2) in 1 fluid oz./30mL of warm water. Add and stir gently. Clears wine in 12-48 hours. May not clear pectin haze or products made with hard water.

Contains: Sterile Water, Kieselsol, Chitosan (Shellfish Derivative)"

Link is here: Super Kleer Finings (Kieselsol/Chitosan) - 65 mL | MoreBeer

 

[winemaker81]

May not clear pectin haze or products made with hard water.

Emphasis mine. THAT is something I've not considered in situations where a wine doesn't clear. Good thing to know.

 

[heatherd]

Emphasis mine. THAT is something I've not considered in situations where a wine doesn't clear. Good thing to know.

Yes, same here.

 

[Bmd2k1]

IIRC, FWK says to add them together. (just muddying the water further)

My current method allows for a brief interval (1 to 5 minutes) between adding the kieselsol and chitosan.

Exactly when I add both depends on the situation, which varies by the number of containers I'm racking from, and the number of containers that will hold the wine during aging.

In a typical situation I rack the wine off the sediment into another primary. Stir for 1 minute, changing direction once, to degas. Add the kieselsol and stir for 1 minute. Let rest a minute or 5 (doesn't seem to matter how long), add the chitosan and stir again for 1 minute. Rack into the secondary container.

IME any brief interval between the additions works. Supposedly adding them together makes no difference; however my method works for me and there's no advantage (such as saving labor) that gives me reason to change.

How long before bottling do you do this?

Cheers!

 

[winemaker81]

How long before bottling do you do this?

Months. If I'm using a fining agent, I add it right after fermentation completes, then rack 1 to 3 weeks later. If there is more lees (had it happen, probably because of muddy racking although at least once the wine was stubborn), it's got time to drop. I see no value in waiting later in the process, especially close to bottling.

 

[Bill Pet]

Following kit instructions from a few years ago I had always put in chitosan the next day and my wine would clear almost completely in less than a day. After reading this thread I experimented. I made a white wine kit and added chitosan after an hour's delay. I have never had a batch clear so slowly. It took almost 2 weeks to clear. Maybe it was a accident or I did something else wrong but I'm going back to adding it the next day.

 

[wineview]

Following kit instructions from a few years ago I had always put in chitosan the next day and my wine would clear almost completely in less than a day. After reading this thread I experimented. I made a white wine kit and added chitosan after an hour's delay. I have never had a batch clear so slowly. It took almost 2 weeks to clear. Maybe it was a accident or I did something else wrong but I'm going back to adding it the next day.

I think adding chitosan a few hours later or the next day is the way to go. Kit instructions say add together but keep in mind the audience may not have much experience.

 

[winemaker81]

Following kit instructions from a few years ago I had always put in chitosan the next day and my wine would clear almost completely in less than a day. After reading this thread I experimented. I made a white wine kit and added chitosan after an hour's delay. I have never had a batch clear so slowly. It took almost 2 weeks to clear. Maybe it was a accident or I did something else wrong but I'm going back to adding it the next day.

IME K&C doesn't always provide an immediate clearing. As stated upstream, I add the kieselsol first then the chitosan after a brief interval, and normally the clearing starts within hours. However, the FWK Chardonnay I started in 2021 took several days to start, enough of a difference that I thought I had a problem.

Since there is variability in how quickly the K&C starts working, I suspect that the difference may be how old the additives are, AND something about the wine. That's just a theory on my part; so far I have nothing to confirm either way.

In your situation, if adding the next day works for you, don't change anything.

 

[ratflinger]

Following kit instructions from a few years ago I had always put in chitosan the next day and my wine would clear almost completely in less than a day. After reading this thread I experimented. I made a white wine kit and added chitosan after an hour's delay. I have never had a batch clear so slowly. It took almost 2 weeks to clear. Maybe it was a accident or I did something else wrong but I'm going back to adding it the next day.

Unless you are trying to bottle immediately then what difference does it make? 2 weeks to clear, that was also 2 weeks to partially degas.

 

[Bmd2k1]

To this point I've not ever used K&C for clearing -- rather relying on bulk aging time to do the job.

However - I'm wondering for my whites (if needed in a pinch due to time commitments etc) - could I utilize K&C to speed it up. Hmmmm.

My scenario would be for bulk aging whites (Chard, Viognier, Pinot Grigio) -- which for me currently clear pretty dang great after 3-4months in bulk. (I use D47 for all my whites currently.)

Wondering -- if I decided to use K&C at the 3month mark for a vino yet to clear 100% -- should I rack to a new vessel first before adding K&C -- or just add to the current bulk aging vessel and then after a few days rack to a new vessel.

Cheers!

 

[winemaker81]

However - I'm wondering for my whites (if needed in a pinch due to time commitments etc) - could I utilize K&C to speed it up. Hmmmm.

Any fining agent will speed up the process. If you want to try sur lie / battonage, it makes sense to not use a fining agent up front, so fine lees drop.

If you're using it late in the process, don't rack first. You'll need to remove enough wine from the carboy so you can stir the wine. Add the kieselsol and stir for 1 minute. Wait 5 minutes (or whatever time you want), add the chitosan and stir for 1 minute. Then restore the reserved wine. The sediment you stirred up with drop, and there is evidence that more sediment means it drops faster, as it provides more nucleation points for clumps to form and drop.

If you have ANY dissolved CO2, stir gently. If not, make sure you capture the volcano on video for the edification of your friends on WMT!

I barrel aged 2021 FWK without fining agents. When I drained the barrels in November, I treated 23 liter of each wine (Forte Super Tuscan; Forte Merlot/Petite Sirah/Syrah) with K&C and bottled the remainder. Two weeks later I bottled the two reserved carboys. In a few weeks my son and I will blind taste the 4 wines (fined and unfined versions of both wines) to see if adding K&C made a difference, and if so, what difference.

 

[Bmd2k1]

Any fining agent will speed up the process. If you want to try sur lie / battonage, it makes sense to not use a fining agent up front, so fine lees drop.

If you're using it late in the process, don't rack first. You'll need to remove enough wine from the carboy so you can stir the wine. Add the kieselsol and stir for 1 minute. Wait 5 minutes (or whatever time you want), add the chitosan and stir for 1 minute. Then restore the reserved wine. The sediment you stirred up with drop, and there is evidence that more sediment means it drops faster, as it provides more nucleation points for clumps to form and drop.

If you have ANY dissolved CO2, stir gently. If not, make sure you capture the volcano on video for the edification of your friends on WMT!

I barrel aged 2021 FWK without fining agents. When I drained the barrels in November, I treated 23 liter of each wine (Forte Super Tuscan; Forte Merlot/Petite Sirah/Syrah) with K&C and bottled the remainder. Two weeks later I bottled the two reserved carboys. In a few weeks my son and I will blind taste the 4 wines (fined and unfined versions of both wines) to see if adding K&C made a difference, and if so, what difference.

Thanks! Looking forward to hearing your testing results!

Cheers!