Mexican v. Italian carboy

[Brian55]

I see that the comments about Chinese carboys are 5 years old, but @Brian55 what's wrong with them? Has your inadvertent purchase been as disappointing as you thought back then?

I bought 2x 3 gal and 2x 5 gal carboys from Morewine last year. They came well packed, i have used them successfully and as far as I can tell they are free of defects. I recently acquired 9 more carboys (5 and 6.5gal), and although I am not sure of their provenance (I got them second hand) I don't see an obvious difference in quality.

The glass is very inconsistent and has a lot of imperfections compared to the others. So much so, that I'm afraid to put it under vacuum for degassing. The slightly higher price of the Italian made carboys is well worth it, just for peace of mind.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

The glass is very inconsistent and has a lot of imperfections compared to the others. So much so, that I'm afraid to put it under vacuum for degassing. The slightly higher price of the Italian made carboys is well worth it, just for peace of mind.

Thanks for the reply. Hopefully I got lucky with some good ones.

 

[Steve Wargo]

Here is an update on what I was referencing in the above posting. I saw this ad in our local Craig's List:

Well-overdue Garage Sale! - garage & moving sales - yard estate sale (craigslist.org)

If you look at the ad, you will see 2 each 6-gallon carboys among other wine making items. Unfortunately for me, I got there too late for the carboys (they sold for $10 each!), but I did get all in the picture for $20, no negotiation and I am sure I could have paid less. The box contains 24 bags of assorted oak chips and powders. The Vinator is missing the pump, but I only wanted the drying tree, the Auto Siphon was new in a plastic bag, the carboy brush was new, the stirring paddle just needed a cleaning as did the floor corker, which works better than the one I have.
View attachment 86518

Keep your eye on garage sales!

Good buy. When a person is selling good stuff at firesale prices I just pay what they are asking for the items. If they start too high, I will make my best fair price offer, and I tell them so. They either say yes or no. I don't waste my time. You got a great deal.

 

[wineview]

How do you tell if your carboy is Italian or Mexican?

The Italian carboys generally have a pattern along the side and the glass feels heavy. It’s also stamped on the bottom. Mexico made carboys that I have come across have smooth sides and Mexico is stamped on the bottom as well.

 

[tmcfadden932]

The difference between the two is the annealing process. The old world glass makers do this, the Mexican do not and the carboys will break for no apparent reason. Annealing (glass) - Wikipedia

 

[Fox Squirrel Vin]

If they sourced them from a factory with an ISO 7086-1:2019 certification they they are probably fine. I've imported a lot from china and I learned my lesson with them. If you are not there with an inspector when they put the seal on the container, they will screw you. They are not honest people to deal with unless you are a huge company they make a lot of money from and would be afraid to lose you as a customer. Everybody else gets the crap.

I don't know how morewine can test the glass without sending it to a lab and why would you even bother with Chinese carboys when the Italian ones are not that much more expensive and you know you are getting a legit product? I would only buy a container of Chinese carboys if I got them insanely cheap and if they were insanely cheap I would wonder why. The chinese are not stupid and they use that intelligence to make you think your getting something you are not.

 

[Rocky]

I should have knocked on wood! I had to order two carboys today from Label Peelers! Me and my "big fingers."

I just know I am going to see a bunch of carboys in a yard sale now.

 

[Jusatele]

My nephew is a broker for Chinese manufacturing and imports and he avoids their products like the plague.
Sourcing non Chinese made products can be hard as it is a world based on profits.
but I think the reason for the thread is about carboy sizes. I have always had to mark my carboys in volume increments, because I have all my recipes in gallons I mark them in gallons and quarts. lately have been converting over to liters as it seems to make since. 750 and liter bottles seem to be the norm.

Which brings up a question. If the rest of the world deals in liters, and we do in gallons, are the differences in the amount the carboys hold because vendors buy carboys that are approximately 3, 5 or 6 gallon? And seeing as there is no fill to line on a carboy, who decides how much is full and uses that as a standard?

 

[winemaker81]

And seeing as there is no fill to line on a carboy, who decides how much is full and uses that as a standard?

The exact volume of carboys appears to vary by manufacturer, and I have no idea how they decide what "full" means. Mine are not exactly consistent, although they're not that far off from each other.

In general, 5 US gallon /19 liter carboys hold more than the stated volume when topped up to within 3" of the stopper. I assume 5.25 gallons / 20 liters, and that fills 'er up.

 

[CDrew]

I have a couple of Mexican carboys and the only thing that stands out, is the opening is just slightly larger than other Carboys whether Italian or Chinese. The volume held is plus or minus 5% of stated volume at least.
Here are the markings on a Mexican carboy of unknown age, but glass is just as heavy and nice as Italian carboys I have.

 

[mikewatkins727]

We have discussed this issue in the past and it comes down to the annealing of the glass. It seems the Mexican glass annealing process is lacking. IMHO.

 

[Jusatele]

WineMaker 81
that is what I was getting at, 5 gallons is more than likely a 20 liter carboy. Even a 22 would not seem strange, but 19 is not likely. And even head space could be subjective. === I mean is there even a standard?

Given then we are operating in a country that uses quarts and gallons in a world that uses liters, I think we are on our own when trying to buy a gallon incremented carboy

 

[Jusatele]

Basically, the USA needs to get their head out of their #&@ and switch over to the metric system

 

[wineview]

I have a couple of Mexican carboys and the only thing that stands out, is the opening is just slightly larger than other Carboys whether Italian or Chinese. The volume held is plus or minus 5% of stated volume at least.
Here are the markings on a Mexican carboy of unknown age, but glass is just as heavy and nice as Italian carboys I have.
View attachment 89035

I have some old Mexican carboys. After a bit of research I found that the Mexican versions from the 1960’s are as strong as any Italian one. Today however, I would steer clear of them.

 

[wineview]

The exact volume of carboys appears to vary by manufacturer, and I have no idea how they decide what "full" means. Mine are not exactly consistent, although they're not that far off from each other.

In general, 5 US gallon /19 liter carboys hold more than the stated volume when topped up to within 3" of the stopper. I assume 5.25 gallons / 20 liters, and that fills 'er up.

I’m not sure manufacturers think like wine makers and the importance of topping up when they indicate volume.

 

[winemaker81]

@Jusatele, @wineview, I believe we're all more-or-less on the same wavelength.

I suspect 5 gallon carboys were originally created to fulfill a specific need, and it wasn't winemaking. Sales to home winemakers is more recent, and most likely an opportunistic market. They are designed to hold at least 5 US gallons, and they do that. That is the most likely standard.

The carboys I sold 30+ years ago were 5 gallon, not dual marked 19 liters. With the rise of the largely Canadian-based kit vendors, it may be that things got retrofitted for both markets.

I further suspect the 6 US gallon / 23 liter kits came into vogue to ensure the 5 gallon carboys would be filled. The 6/23 carboys came into play as it provides a single container that holds an entire 6/23 kit, eliminating the need for more containers. All an evolution, not a plan.

I had a couple of WineArt boxes from the 90's in my attic, which I tossed 10 years ago. By current kit standards, they were tiny. The info on the packages might give us more of a clue.

When I was in middle school (long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away) my science teacher said the US was going metric. Things would be easier now if we had done it.

 

[FunkedOut]

I've got a half dozen or so Italian carboys all sourced from the same vendor. There are a couple that hold considerably more or less than the others.
I've never measured them, but I know, sometimes I can over flow the receiving carboy when racking a clear wine and not leaving much behind.

 

[Jusatele]

A lot of beer brewers use 6 gallon for primary and then rack into 5 gallon, head space and not having to top off is the reason.

I do believe that we are a secondary market that just showed up, just like a lot of stuff filters down from beer homebrewers. Those guys are doing great stuff with fermenters and other equipment. Their studies with yeast are great reads, as well as the yeast propagation stuff they have for small scale use.
We are a niche market to the beer stores so we need to allow it to filter down to us. My years of beer brewing taught me a lot of stuff I find useful in wine making but they are two separate hobbies in as many ways as they are the same.

I do not think they will ever make carboys just for us that are accurate to 5 gallons as imperial measurements are only in a few countries anymore. We seem lucky they make them close.

 

[wineview]

A lot of beer brewers use 6 gallon for primary and then rack into 5 gallon, head space and not having to top off is the reason.

I do believe that we are a secondary market that just showed up, just like a lot of stuff filters down from beer homebrewers. Those guys are doing great stuff with fermenters and other equipment. Their studies with yeast are great reads, as well as the yeast propagation stuff they have for small scale use.
We are a niche market to the beer stores so we need to allow it to filter down to us. My years of beer brewing taught me a lot of stuff I find useful in wine making but they are two separate hobbies in as many ways as they are the same.

I do not think they will ever make carboys just for us that are accurate to 5 gallons as imperial measurements are only in a few countries anymore. We seem lucky they make them close.

I agree 100%. When wort was in primary I needed that extra head space and a blow off tube.

 

[ratflinger]

If you are using topping off marbles (as I do) then a search will find US made marbles. And you only want the clear ones. I just won't buy things from China if the items are for food, I do not trust them one bit and there is no legal recourse if they make you sick.