Micro oxygenation

[Xlev]

Hi everyone

I have been reading about the benefits of microoxygenation of red wines, so that made me wondering how to achieve that if not aging in barrels?

Im guessing that plastic carboys would offer some levels of micro oxygenation? What about using a natural cork to allow the passage of some oxygen to the carboy during aging?

Just some ideas,and I am wondering if you guys have some suggestions?

 

[cmason1957]

Plastic carboys might offer some very, very small amount of micro oxygenation, about the same as taking the airlock out of a carboy does. Here is a study from better bottle company about that: http://better-bottle.com/pdf/CarboyPermeabilityStudy.pdf

Putting a cork as a stopper in carboy would certainly provide some micro-oxidation effects, probably about the same amount as aging in a bottle.
So I would guess that means you would need to leave it there for a very long time. Or bottle sooner and let it age in a bottle.

 

[Bmd2k1]

I'm curious about the Flex Tank maturation products...

Anyone using them??


They claim:

How does the oxygen permeability of Flextank compare to that of traditional oak barrels?​

Flextank’s maturation weight vessels are designed to have a similar oxygen permeation rate to that of a typical second-use wine barrel, when used at a nominal cellar temperature of approximately 55 degrees Fahrenheit (13 degrees Celsius). Flextank’s ‘heavyweight’ vessels are designed to act like neutral wine barrels. Heavyweight vessels are simply heavier vessels with thicker walls. Oxygen permeation rates are about half that of the maturation vessels and are comparable to “neutral” barrels.

 

[vinny]

I am surprised that there isn't an old school way of micro oxidizing in different vessels. I know that commercial wineries have complex systems that can introduce the correct O2 needed, but you would think there would be a simpler way.

It would be interesting to compare different batches trying different timelines, but If a barrel is slowly letting oxygen pass through the wood, wouldn't simply taking the top off of your carboy periodically reintroduce O2 into the small amount of headspace which would be absorbed over time, and accomplish the same thing. Or am I not grasping the concept at all?

We are adding K-meta to protect from large amounts of O2, then wish for micro exposure. What if you opened your carboy at the 1.5 month point when k-meta has diminished and allow air into the top inch. Micro oxygenation, no? Maybe this needs to be done every 2 weeks?

Am I thinking to simplistically?

 

[winemaker81]

I am surprised that there isn't an old school way of micro oxidizing in different vessels.

I'm reading the history of winemaking book David (@Rice_Guy) recommended, and what we think of as "modern" winemaking is quite modern. Stainless steel was invented around 1913, so before that wooden containers were probably the main bulk container used. I'm not sure when concrete containers came into play.

The micro-oxidation effect may have been identified as a desirable trait, as opposed to "it is what it is", only in the last few decades. So the idea of intentionally reproducing the effects of barrels was not something that mattered.

We are adding K-meta to protect from large amounts of O2, then wish for micro exposure. What if you opened your carboy at the 1.5 month point when k-meta has diminished and allow air into the top inch. Micro oxygenation, no? Maybe this needs to be done every 2 weeks?

An oak barrel has a consistent, very slow, ingress rate. Barrel aging is months of duration. OTOH, opening the wine to O2 is uncontrolled and rapid, so I'd expect bad results.

 

[winemanden]

Maybe I'm feeling a bit thick headed this afternoon, maybe I'm always Crazy like this. If a container is 100% full of wine + ullage, (CO2), how does the Oxygen get into the wine? Are we losing alcohol? Does a bottle of wine, say 20 years old, contain less alcohol than when it was bottled? Just thinking out loud!!!

I suppose this could be related to Big Dave K,s thread, "Just how much alcohol is in my wine."

 

[winemaker81]

Maybe I'm feeling a bit thick headed this afternoon, maybe I'm always Crazy like this. If a container is 100% full of wine + ullage, (CO2), how does the Oxygen get into the wine? Are we losing alcohol? Does a bottle of wine, say 20 years old, contain less alcohol than when it was bottled? Just thinking out loud!!!

With barrels, there is evaporation through the wood. My 54 liter barrels lose about 10% volume over a year's time. I assume there is an exchange of sorts, as tiny amounts of O2 get into the barrel. The O2 ingress is tiny, as the barrels develop a vacuum due to the evaporation and I have to fight to get the bungs out.

With a glass container, ingress is through the cork. There is a tiny amount of ingress per year -- as corks age and start failing, the ingress amount gets larger.

 

[BigDaveK]

From my limited reading on the subject one has to be extremely careful, results can go south easily.
This was briefly touched on in a link provided by @Rice_Guy. I think it was called "New techniques in wine aging".
Time can be money in the wine biz so as I understand it, some wine makers are using micro-oxygenation because..........wait for it.......they don't have patience.

 

[ibglowin]

I'm curious about the Flex Tank maturation products...

Anyone using them??


They claim:

How does the oxygen permeability of Flextank compare to that of traditional oak barrels?​

Flextank’s maturation weight vessels are designed to have a similar oxygen permeation rate to that of a typical second-use wine barrel, when used at a nominal cellar temperature of approximately 55 degrees Fahrenheit (13 degrees Celsius). Flextank’s ‘heavyweight’ vessels are designed to act like neutral wine barrels. Heavyweight vessels are simply heavier vessels with thicker walls. Oxygen permeation rates are about half that of the maturation vessels and are comparable to “neutral” barrels.

There are several of us here that have them. They have all the micro-ox of a barrel without any of the loss or evaporation via the angels share. You also then don't get the concentration via evaporation either which is usually a good thing. I have two 15G tanks and they are very nice to have in the toolbox. I also have small (23L) barrels. There are several scientific studies out including one by Daniel Pambianchi with lots of good info on them.

 

[Rice_Guy]

* you are asking about selectively oxidizing chemicals with a high redox potential while not pushing the chemistry fast enough that everything cascades into vinegar. If you limit the oxidation potential you can selectively force polyphenols to polymerize which reduces hard and astringent flavors ,, without attacking the ethyl alcohol (slightly lower redox potential),, you can selectively change some flavors (at high redox potential). ,, You can let alcohol react with organic acids creating esthers ,, and lowering the TA of the wine. ,,, Making it smoother age. ,,, Vinegar, results from running the cascade fast and isn’t smooth tasting.

I am surprised that there isn't an old school way of micro oxidizing in different vessels. I know that commercial wineries have complex systems that can introduce the correct O2 needed, but you would think there would be a simpler way.

* the easiest low tech way to micro oxygenate that I have found is to store the wine in LDPE with an oxygen transmission rate around 100, or HDPE with a rate of about 50. (ml O2 per mm film/meter2 at atmosphere pressure) ,,, ie look for a flexible camping water jug (LDPE) or a flextank (HDPE). Note transmission numbers are based on meter square surface times thickness. Big tank factory folks don’t worry about oxidation over a season, ,,, but we are concerned with two year shelf life/ best by code dates for those really small 8oz. packages.

 

[winemaker81]

You also then don't get the concentration via evaporation either which is usually a good thing.

That depends on your POV. In my case, I want the evaporation, as the concentration effect on the wine makes a huge difference. I taste-tested my current wines (Grenache, Tempranillo) after 6 weeks in neutral barrels (no oak cubes added yet) vs. glass aged versions, and the difference was already perceptible, and the barrel aged is preferable.

At the same time, I also glass-age wines because I want a lighter style. Both have their places in my cellar, but for a heavy red, barrel aging makes a significant difference.

 

[Gilmango]

Speidel tanks are often touted as having the micro-oxygenation benefits of a flex tank or even a barrel, but so far I've only done 8 weeks at most of primary + extended maceration in mine.

Someone on this site warned me against using them as secondaries, based on knowing a guy who aged all his wines in them and not liking his wines.

Also, my 30 liter Speidel holds about 9 gallons (34.07 liters), and filling that to the top would be a real challenge, plus the top doesn't narrow as much as the neck of a glass carboy does. For both of those reasons I'd worry about oxidation at the top of the wine.

But here's what Morewine says about them: Can I Use The Plastic Speidel Tanks for Storing Wine? | MoreWine

Can I Use The Plastic Speidel Tanks for Storing Wine?​

We would not hesitate to use these for wine storage for 6 months, give or take depending on the kind of wine and the size of the tank (more on that later). Speidels are made from thick HDPE, the same material as Flextanks are made from. For those not familiar with Flextanks these are similar HDPE tanks made for wine storage that have similar oxygen transfer rates to oak barrels. So the idea is that you can store wine with in these types of tanks with oak and get similar results to the slow micro-oxygenation you get with a barrel. We would suggest for longer term storage you remove the airlock and attach the threaded cap. Depending on tank size, more oxygen transfer will occur through the airlock than will through the sidewalls of the tank.

When we were considering these tanks for sale we were hesitant about long term wine storage as well even though we knew about the material and the science. One real life example was that in Germany these Speidel HDPE tanks can be found in nearly every winery for left over small lots. In a winery we visited in the Mosel Valley they had high-quality Riesling stored in the larger size speidel tanks for a year.

If you are making a wine kit the micro-oxygenation is going to play less of a factor since kit wines are designed not to require long term aging. If you are making a high tannin red directly from grapes you will want some micro-ox in your vessel. If you store in a carboy or stainless tank your wine will go reductive and is more likely to develop sulphur based compounds that reduce the perception of ripe fruit. For big reds where barrels are not an option, the Speidel HDPE tanks are ideal.

With that said the larger the HDPE vessel the less overall surface area. So if you have a larger size tank and a big red wine you can leave it in there longer. If you have a more delicate wine (white, pinot, etc) and a small tank you should leave it in for less time. It would be great if we could say for this type of wine and that size tank here is a rough estimate of months you could store. While we want to work on that more it will always come down to taste as every wine is going to react differently.

 

[BigDaveK]

That depends on your POV. In my case, I want the evaporation, as the concentration effect on the wine makes a huge difference. I taste-tested my current wines (Grenache, Tempranillo) after 6 weeks in neutral barrels (no oak cubes added yet) vs. glass aged versions, and the difference was already perceptible, and the barrel aged is preferable.

I hope I never get interested in wine making from grapes. Not using a barrel, to me, would be like putting down a book without reading the last chapter. I have enough on my plate - uh, I mean in the cellar - as it is.
Though I'm going to play with oaking some fruit wines this year. Maybe a barrel is in my future? (God, I hope not! )

 

[winemaker81]

I hope I never get interested in wine making from grapes. Not using a barrel, to me, would be like putting down a book without reading the last chapter. I have enough on my plate - uh, I mean in the cellar - as it is.
Though I'm going to play with oaking some fruit wines this year. Maybe a barrel is in my future? (God, I hope not! )

A carboy is a container. A barrel is a commitment.

 

[ChuckD]

I hope I never get interested in wine making from grapes.

I’ve got $20 on 6 months.

 

[balatonwine]

Stainless steel was invented around 1913, so before that wooden containers were probably the main bulk container used.

And before oak, clay amphora were used as the main bulk containers (for thousands of years).

So the idea of "oak aging" and "mirco oxygenation" is indeed a modern (few centuries) ideology of wine making. Stainless is even more modern as stated.

I say "ideology" as I do not believe there is any one way to make any wine. Red or white. Rather it depends on what you want as an end result. Be that end result be based on personal, cultural or economic reasons. And all those can change over time.

 

[winemaker81]

So the idea of "oak aging" and "mirco oxygenation" is indeed a modern (few centuries) ideology of wine making. Stainless is even more modern as stated.

The history I'm reading states that barrel usage goes back 2,000 years, but was considered a second choice to amphora, as amphora sealed well and the wine (well, what was considered wine at that time) preserved well. Barrels leaked and/or evaporated, so the wine didn't preserve as well.

Your point is correct -- "modern" usage of barrels is far more recent.

 

[Jim Welch]

And before oak, clay amphora were used as the main bulk containers (for thousands of years).

So the idea of "oak aging" and "mirco oxygenation" is indeed a modern (few centuries) ideology of wine making. Stainless is even more modern as stated.

I say "ideology" as I do not believe there is any one way to make any wine. Red or white. Rather it depends on what you want as an end result. Be that end result be based on personal, cultural or economic reasons. And all those can change over time.

We’ll put imo…

 

[balatonwine]

The history I'm reading states that barrel usage goes back 2,000 years, but was considered a second choice to amphora,

Amphora go back 8,000 years.

Wood is still the new kid on the block.

Stainless is not even out of diapers....

I mostly use HDPE... (plastic). That may be embryonic....

I guess my point was, what really matters is, what is or was, "predominate" in any period in history can vary. That this can, does and will always vary. Because culture always varies, as do wine making tastes and preferences. Both in space and time.

 

[winemaker81]

Amphora go back 8,000 years.

Wood is still the new kid on the block.

Stainless is not even out of diapers....

I mostly use HDPE... (plastic). That may be embryonic....

I guess my point was, what really matters is, what is or was, "predominate" in any period in history can vary. That this can, does and will always vary. Because culture always varies, as do wine making tastes and preferences. Both in space and time.

Spot on!

2,000 years ago, barrels didn't work well because of the evaporation produced oxidation. Oddly enough, today we use the barrels, in part, because of the evaporation. It would be interesting to see what winemaking is like in 50 years.