This is my first year of winemaking, and I started with Cabarnet Sauvignon, everything went smooth, I did my second racking a few days ago at exactly 90 days since beginning, I took a sample, sniffed it, and there was this really nice fruity flavor, the color as you could see in the picture looks all right, and tasted it, it did taste good as well, but cannot easily describe it, it was slightly bitter and sour I should say, I am not sure if this is the right description, but I think it is, so my question is ? for a Cabarnet Sauvignon at 90 days is it ok to experience this type of slightly sorry taste, I guess with time it will mellow. What do you think ?
My First Cabranet Sauvignon.
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I can't comment on the Cab but I can comment on aging.
I'm new at this myself and reading about how a wine changes with time is one thing. To experience it first hand is unforgettable and amazing. It can truly be a remarkable transformation.
I'm new at this myself and reading about how a wine changes with time is one thing. To experience it first hand is unforgettable and amazing. It can truly be a remarkable transformation.
A sour taste could come from dissolved CO2, which will go away. Wines, especially heavier reds go through a LOT of changes in the first 4 to 12 months. Every time you touch the wine, taste it and record your impressions -- put your notes away and do not look at them for a year after bottling. Then read the notes, oldest to newest. You'll be amazed.
Just to pile on, that wine is a baby. It has months or years of growing up to do. Slightly bitter or vegetal flavors are common for a long time. By a year, you might start to get a sense for it. Your color looks promising to me!
And the dissolved CO2 thing is real. That can last a long time in my experience.
Was this made from grapes or a kit?
And the dissolved CO2 thing is real. That can last a long time in my experience.
Was this made from grapes or a kit?
Does the dissolved CO2 go away while aging in the bottle, or only when bulk aging with an airlock?
acid will drop as it ages due to acid reacting with alcohol to form esters. Early tannin makes it tangier also. As it ages tannin will drop. It sounds ok to me. I bottle Cabernets at ~10-12 months at ~75 ppm total potassium metabisulphite i.e. 6 to 7/8 tsp in total from start to finish. I never add sulphite to a red wine fermentation. Use 50 ppm after malolactic is done and 1/8 tsp increments on racking i.e. 1/8 tsp gives ~50 ppm sulphite in an Imperial gallon. My experience is ~1/3 of totals sulphite in reds ends up as free sulphite. My cabernets last at least 5-6 years in my cooler at 57F with no signs of oxidation or smell of sulphite. It sounds to me like you have a decent Cabernet that will age if stored in the dark below about 65F.
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To be clear, wine always has some level of of dissolved CO2 -- it's part of the flavor structure. When we say "degassed", it means the dissolved CO2 is below a threshold where it will bubble out on its own.
The wine should be degassed before bottling. I have found that a short (1 minute) stir with a drill-mounted stirring rod after fermentation is done kickstarts the process, and by the time the wine is bottled (3-12 months later), it is fully degassed.
Please note that bottling wine that is not fully degassed is a very bad idea, unless intentionally making a sparkling wine. In a regular wine bottle the pressure may push the cork out, making a mini-volcano and a mess. If the cork is secured in any way (e.g., wire cage) that prevents the cork from popping, sufficient pressure may cause the bottle to fail in a weak spot. In short, the bottle can explode. It's not a good area for messing around.
I am not sure if this is a kit, or of you made your wine from grapes, or juice, but my first wines were from kits. I am sure there are similarities, anyway.
I would say the flavor you are describing is the imbalance of a young wine.
When I tasted my wine at the 8 week bottle date of the kit I was worried I had made 6 gallons of something I would never drink. It was unbalanced, and heavily acidic. The best way I can explain it is there was just no blend in the flavors. It was sharp and almost like the tongue was picking up the wrong flavors in the wrong places. It was not rounded at all.
It was a completely different experience at the 5 month point. Around 3 months after the bottle date, it was like one week to the next, is still tasted unbalanced, to 'hey, this tastes pretty good'
I am now at 9 months with some of them. They have continued to mellow and blend. They are nicer than they were at 5 months, but there has not been a change nearly as significant as the one over that few week period.
I have noted this with 5 different kits. All reds. Don't like it, don't like it...hmmm. not too shabby! I have only done 2 whites and at 6+ months on the newest it still tastes a little young, kinda grapey. The whites seem to be more linear in their progression without the dramatic change I have seen in the reds.
Maybe others can comment as to whether this is a kit thing or if there is a similar progression with real juices, or grape presses?
I would say the flavor you are describing is the imbalance of a young wine.
When I tasted my wine at the 8 week bottle date of the kit I was worried I had made 6 gallons of something I would never drink. It was unbalanced, and heavily acidic. The best way I can explain it is there was just no blend in the flavors. It was sharp and almost like the tongue was picking up the wrong flavors in the wrong places. It was not rounded at all.
It was a completely different experience at the 5 month point. Around 3 months after the bottle date, it was like one week to the next, is still tasted unbalanced, to 'hey, this tastes pretty good'
I am now at 9 months with some of them. They have continued to mellow and blend. They are nicer than they were at 5 months, but there has not been a change nearly as significant as the one over that few week period.
I have noted this with 5 different kits. All reds. Don't like it, don't like it...hmmm. not too shabby! I have only done 2 whites and at 6+ months on the newest it still tastes a little young, kinda grapey. The whites seem to be more linear in their progression without the dramatic change I have seen in the reds.
Maybe others can comment as to whether this is a kit thing or if there is a similar progression with real juices, or grape presses?
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All wines I have ever made have gone from well that tastes at least all-right when I bottled it to that tastes like something the cat wouldn't even drag in about a month after bottling to that is at least all-right at 6 months and then some of them have made it to that's a really nice wine I'm glad I put our name on it (since the wife's name is always on the wines also) at 9 months to 1 year to 18 months.
Except for the truly early drinkers I have made skeeter pee, dragon's blood, never have liked either of those very much, but the family loves them very soon after bottling.
Except for the truly early drinkers I have made skeeter pee, dragon's blood, never have liked either of those very much, but the family loves them very soon after bottling.
There will be a transformation in all wines, regardless of the source material. They start out very raw and probably unpleasant, and over a period of time, transform into something totally different and (well, hopefully!) pleasant to drink.
The source material directly affects the duration of the transformation and the exact nature of it.
Generally, the more robust the wine, the longer the duration of the transformation. Why? There's more "stuff" to change, and certain components, especially tannin, take longer (sometimes years) to transform. Thin wines such as Dragons Blood don't have a lot in them, so they age into drinkability very quickly. Lighter whites and light fruits may take a bit longer. Heavy whites such as Chardonnay take longer, as do light reds, or any red fermented in a shorter cycle. Heavy reds fermented longer on the skins, EM'd, and/or heavily pressed take longer yet. [As do whites that are fermented like reds, on the skins.]
Also true is the heavier the wine, the longer the projected lifespan, e.g., tannin, acid, sugar, body, etc. are all factors in longer-lived wines.
Dave (Vinny) has been tasting his wines all along, and that is the best way to teach ourselves about how wine ages.
This is interesting. You agree that at 5-6 months that's where the main transition is seen from a bucket of fermented grape juice and it really starts to develop some real wine characteristics. This still doesn't mean it is smooth and rounded and more so enjoyable to everyone.
I'm getting a little hindsight here with things I was thinking as I wrote my last post. I feel some of the later batches took longer, 3.5-4 months past bottle date to reach the same level as the first one. Lots to consider there. It was still one tasting to the next, but it wasn't my first batch anymore, I wasn't as eager. I wasn't as excited to like the wine, because I wasn't so worried I was going to dump it? The first was a better kit, blended out sooner? Just had a better taste profile? I had been tasting many wines throughout their development, I wasn't as easy to please?
Taste is subjective. I was happy to drink my current wines starting at 5 months. They are now at 9-10. This is where you are proud to share them. I wonder of the 5 kits I have in bulk when they will come 'due' for me and if it will change as my tastes progress with my wines. I also have the cheapest to the most expensive, plus skins in one.
You have said kits are more predictable than grapes, I assume as they are balanced by the manufacturer without all the variable of a grape harvest? Do you think that the concentration process allows for less aging over raw grapes, as well as the balancing of the concentrate?
I don't mean to hijack a fellas post. I just find for every question I can answer, I can ask 100 more!
Hi
Thank you very much for the comment, I will do that, just one thing that I want to ask, as I am bulk aging I changed my dry airlock with a Speidel like cap do you recommend it for storage till April. That will be the time when I will bottle.
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Great. Given that, with all the additional tannins supplied by the skins, it has a period of aging it needs to go through. Don't worry, I'll bet it will be good in the end. It's funny, some wines taste great (but young) right after press, and some take a long while to come around. Case in point, I made a large amount (about 12 cases) of Tempranillo in 2019, and while it's been OK here and there, I had some last night and thought for the first time, that it was pretty good. So it's taken over 3 years to come into it's own. Bottom line, kick back, have a glass of (other) wine and don't stress on this one.
I can also recommend, that after bottling you drink at most 1 bottle per month to note the changes over time. That's fun and has been a free wine education for me. Or better yet, bottle, wait a year and then taste 1 bottle per month. The longer it stays in bulk storage, the less likely you are to drink it, and that's a good thing for now.
I'd wait as long as you can stand to bottle. I bottle everything except white wine in the late fall the year after the vintage, so at roughly 14 months. And in fact, I still have 2 stray kegs of '21 zinfandel to bottle, one of which may become another "port" experiment.
Good luck, and post up progress!
Thanks alot for the tips, I am really trying my best to make it a good wine, I will post my progress.Great. Given that, with all the additional tannins supplied by the skins, it has a period of aging it needs to go through. Don't worry, I'll bet it will be good in the end. It's funny, some wines taste great (but young) right after press, and some take a long while to come around. Case in point, I made a large amount (about 12 cases) of Tempranillo in 2019, and while it's been OK here and there, I had some last night and thought for the first time, that it was pretty good. So it's taken over 3 years to come into it's own. Bottom line, kick back, have a glass of (other) wine and don't stress on this one.
I can also recommend, that after bottling you drink at most 1 bottle per month to note the changes over time. That's fun and has been a free wine education for me. Or better yet, bottle, wait a year and then taste 1 bottle per month. The longer it stays in bulk storage, the less likely you are to drink it, and that's a good thing for now.
I'd wait as long as you can stand to bottle. I bottle everything except white wine in the late fall the year after the vintage, so at roughly 14 months. And in fact, I still have 2 stray kegs of '21 zinfandel to bottle, one of which may become another "port" experiment.
Good luck, and post up progress!
The biggest difference in your situation is YOU. Since you started making wine, you have become far more introspective about the wine, so what was pretty good a year ago is not today. While not universal, I've found this to be common.
You know what you're getting with a kit, at least with reputable brands. The vendor has blended the must to contain proper sugar, acid, etc. As long as you have an idea of what you're doing (or can read & follow instructions), and have good hygiene, you'll get a good result.
With grapes? It's a crap shoot. Even the best vineyards can have a crap year, or from a vineyard with 95% great vines, you get the crap ones. And when you get good grapes? They can be low or high in acid, low or high in brix, etc.
I have no idea what that is. Are you storing in stainless steel?
As long as the headspace is controlled (small), it's probably ok.
I use drilled stoppers/airlocks and vented bungs in carboys, never anything that can't release gas. Changes in temperature and/or air pressure can blow the bung in a degassed wine. I use solid bungs in barrels, but the wine evaporates through the wood, producing a vacuum inside, so after the first few days the temperature/pressure has little or no effect.
Yes I am storing in a 100 L Sansone Stainless Steel tank with a Variable Capacity Lid but after 3 months I take out the dry airlock and changed it with Speidel Cap, so it is completely sealed, do I still need an airlock at this stage ?
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I have no experience with such containers, so I can't advise you specifically.
I don't know about those containers either, but I can offer a general bit of advise. You really need to know if there is still significant CO2 in the wine. So you could pull out about 1/2 bottle, put your thumb over the opening and shake. If there's CO2 in the wine you will feel the pressure under your thumb when you release it.
That's important, because if there is significant residual CO2, then sealing with a cap will tend to preserve the CO2, whereas you want it to dissipate, and an airlock would facilitate that. If there isn't any CO2, than I don't see how the cap could hurt anything.
But with that said, I bulk age in stainless 15.5 gallon (58L) sanke kegs, and the CO2 is not gone by 3 months. So based on that, if you really plan to bottle in May (way too early in my opinion), I would fit the airlock and not the cap. Many of us here use those silicone waterless airlocks to good effect.
That's important, because if there is significant residual CO2, then sealing with a cap will tend to preserve the CO2, whereas you want it to dissipate, and an airlock would facilitate that. If there isn't any CO2, than I don't see how the cap could hurt anything.
But with that said, I bulk age in stainless 15.5 gallon (58L) sanke kegs, and the CO2 is not gone by 3 months. So based on that, if you really plan to bottle in May (way too early in my opinion), I would fit the airlock and not the cap. Many of us here use those silicone waterless airlocks to good effect.
