Need Help with Possibly Dead Vines

[Strk0s]

Hello all, my name is Josh and I am new to this forum. I am seeking help for my problem here because I cannot find it anywhere else.

Some background info: I live in Eastern Washington in the US and we are zone 6. I have three different varieties of grapes: concord, himrod, and canadice. Concord is zone 6 whereas the other two are zone 5. I bought these plants around May - June of 2019.

Our soil here is very very dense and filled with clay - so it retains moisture to a horrible degree (I didn't know this was a problem until later). I have a drip system that waters these plants every day.

These vines were transplanted into the ground from pots pretty soon after buying them. They get 1/2-3/4 sun every day where they are currently. They all grew great for the first year with lots of leaves and new growth.

After winter was over and spring had set - the only plant that had new growth was my Concord. The himrod and canadice both never budded or had leaves come out.

I dug these plants up in the middle of June as I thought they might be dead. The roots were very crowded and very dark - almost black. I pulled all of these dead roots off as they came off readily. I did see new growth and the remaining roots were whiteish and pliable on both the himrod and canadice. I replanted them in new soil that drains decently well. The plants still have not gotten any new growth or shoots.

Since it was a month later with no growth I dug the himrod up today to check in and it doesnt have any dead roots but does have new roots that look decently healthy. So, I replanted it.

My question to the forum is whether these plants are dead or if they are dormant and will come back next year. My Concord vine is doing fantastic while these two are lagging behind heavily.

Thanks for the info!
- Josh

 

[Lando545]

Hey Josh, How hot has it been getting during the day in Eastern Washington? Most Grapes wont photosynthesize in temperatures above i think its 95 degrees. After that they are running off their root reserves to stay alive.

 

[Strk0s]

Hi Lando545!

The temperatures have been anywhere from 75 degrees Fahrenheit to 85 degrees Fahrenheit daily. The Canadice and Himrod both do not have any leaves or buds on them - they are basically sticks with roots.

 

[Neb Farmer]

Hi Lando545!

As far as the roots being really dark in color, I've transplanted Nebbiolo before and the roots were quite dark, but they were not dead. These transplanted vines took a month or so to 'perk up' and start growing again.These were plants that were about 10 years old to begin with and not new plants. So, the dark roots may not be a big problem, IMHO.



I do know that some grape vines are more active than others. Some are what I call 'runts' , and they don't perform as well as another vine that is growing adjacent to it. The chance that you have TWO vines that are not performing well ...it's possible. I would have thought you would have some buds and a few young shoots trying to grow off of them by this time, but if the main vine itself is still 'green' and alive inside, you might just give them a little more time to 'set root' . If you are trying to get your vineyard up and running as soon as possible, you may want to buy a few more vines to plant just in case your first ones don't make it. In the event that they all make it, well , you'll have plenty of grapes! Bonus!

In general , grapes like well drained soil , so hopefully your clay soil isn't hardpan pottery clay soil. If it is, you might have to mix in some sand or something to allow the roots to spread out a bit. I wouldn't water everyday, especially if the soil is holding moisture. A good soil soak every 3 or 4 days on young vines should be more than enough.

Also a thought....you may want to do a soil check...check the pH and see just what you have for the plants to use.

 

[Strk0s]

Hi Neb!

The roots that I pulled off came off without much fight at all and I just combed them away with my fingers. I believe the roots there were crowded and couldn't grow out because of the density of the soil I had. So, I took off what I thought was all the dead root - replanted it in soil that is decently good at draining. The clay that I had previously just sort of formed a bowl around the roots and wouldn't let them grow out further and it retained A LOT of moisture. I also stopped watering them every day for that exact reason.

As for the pH of the soil, it is around 7.0 at the moment and I know grapes are slightly acidic - but I do not have anything for short term acidification only long term (sulfur).

Unfortunately due to Covid we haven't been able to purchase any grapes this year, there aren't many nurseries around where I live whatsoever.

I may be miscommunicating what I mean by the vines that I have. I have three vines that I got last year (2019 Summer) - Concord, Himrod, and Canadice. The Concord is full luscious and it's growing like crazy. The other two didn't bud or show any signs of growth this spring or year whatsoever. They only had last year's growth - which they grew very well - but didn't back this year. I read where you shave off the wood to see if there is green, but there was no green whatsoever. I didn't check near the root system, only where the wood is above ground.

 

[Strk0s]

Below I have attached some pictures - I just dug these up and it looks like their root systems have grown since I last brought them back up. It also looks like the Himrod might have a new shoot coming up. I think the top of the plant completely died. Also, there was green on both of them - just much farther down from the above-ground part - my thumb indicates where it is on both plants.

 

[Neb Farmer]

Josh,

Judging from the looks of the roots, I think they look fine. Maybe they were just root-bound , which would explain little or no new growth. Grape vines are notoriously resilient, though. I wouldn't peel back the bark to see if it is green, but maybe take a fresh cut off of the end of the main cane. If it is even the little bit of green inside, you see it, and it will tell you there is still life in the vine.

I would re-plant them in some decent soil that is not too hard-packed, allowing new root growth, and give them some time. Also, it is important to not plant the root stock too deep....it almost looks like you had most of the root stock underground, judging from the dark color.

Concords are almost invincible...lol. I have a 40 year old concord growing with very little intervention on my part, other than pruning it back every year. I seldom water it, only in times of prolonged summer heat. Bugs don't bother it, and mildew just never happens to the concord, unlike the vinifera I have ( reisling,sangiovese, and nebbiolo ). I think you would have to run your concords over with a car everyday for a year before you would cause it any problems. lol

 

[Strk0s]

Neb,

Yeah! I thought they looked pretty healthy myself. It's very possible that the roots rotted due to the water being trapped in the clay soil. But I'm not positive.

I planted the rootstock that deep to combat freezing temperatures since they are zone 5 and I live in zone 6. Do you recommend that I plant it less deep? They are replanted in soil that is not hard-packed and I'm watering them every 3 days right now. So, now should I just wait until next season to see if they come back?

Also, yeah the Concord is crazy! I'm really excited to see what it does next year.

 

[Neb Farmer]

Josh,

To the best of my knowledge , you should have the rootstock sticking above ground a little bit, maybe a few inches, just so the grafted vine doesn't set roots by itself, which would negate the purpose of having rootstocked vines. As far as cold temperature protection,freezing,etc....they can withstand freezing to a point, but if you are looking at a lot of 25 degree F and below, you might consider covering the lower portion of the vine with some leaves or straw or something, just to help them out a bit.
I am in SouthWest Washington where it is typically a little more mild than the East side , but we do have a week or so of freezing temps every year...down to the 20's , and my vines have weathered that fine without any special care or protection. I know the East side of the state can be pretty cold for weeks at a time, so...it doesn't hurt to be cautious and cover them for the winter.

 

[treesaver]

Concords are not quite that bullit pruff! I have about a half acre of them, and two years ago, a neighbor sprayed his pasture with an airplane, and I had a lot of vines hurt. Then this spring, after pruning, we had a week of low twentys in temp that killed a number of vines completely, some with cordons dead and quite a few that are coming back from the ground. Sometimes you wonder whether it is worth all the trouble! These are 12-15 year old vines. But maybe in a few years I'll be back in business!

 

[efBobby]

I’m on the other side of the country but have seen this before with rescued native vines.

just sounds like transplant shock and/or general root shock the roots are alive then most likely the plant is alive although it may abandon the trunk and send up a new shoot.

I will let others more experienced with your climate help out there but I believe your diagnosis is correct.

also you may consider dialing back on the watering I live in 7b and only water once a day for like 10 minutes.

I suspect you will see new growth either late fall or late spring but the plant is in recovery mode trying to establish a root system to take in water.

plant in something well drained and loose jic it abandons the trunk which is likely considering the number of transplants.

if possible do not pull it anymore or if you fear death may be imminent then you can take a big chance, clean it thoroughly keep it damp and toss it in the fridge to induce dormancy until the conditions are optional. Just keep an eye out for fungi

I just read the first post but I assume the concord is ok? If so wait til it goes dormant then pull it and amend its soil if possiblE.

I don’t think it’s the case here but another tip is if your vine is potted to plant it with the soil it came with or mix in just a little of the soil it’s going into.

when changing soil types the roots have to adapt to the new soil which can shock it. By planting with the original soil the existing roots remain active and the new roots will adapt as they grow past the original soil for a more smooth transition.

hope this helps

 

[efBobby]

Ps here is a concord seedless that fell on its face this spring. I just left it alone and like 3 days ago noticed the shoot hiding amongst an aestivalis. But it seems to have abandoned the trunk.

for reference it looked dead for nearly 3 months.

even though it is very likely the shoot will die in the fall it will almost certainly send a new one up next spring!

once you get a shoot like that the root system is in and working.