Oak bench test

[distancerunner]

Is there any way to perform a bench test to compare/contrast oak?

Many years ago I soaked some beans in vodka for a week or two. Then added a drop at a time to young wine to try to get an idea of what level of oak and which oak tasted best. It was sort of successful, but it still felt like flying by the seat of your pants.

 

[user 36973]

Your taste buds are the most sensitive meter in your lab for the wine you are making for your own enjoyment.

If you want an analytical value of the tannin in your wine (including those imparted by the oak) there are lab techniques that involve ferric chloride (Tannins: Classification, Properties and Chemical Tests) which you buy on amazon.

 

[winemaker81]

What are you trying to test? If it's something subjective, "seat of the pants" is a good description.

 

[distancerunner]

Good question.

What I'm trying to do is choose between two different beans. French and American, both medium toast plus. The wines are grenache and black malvasia. There is also a blend of black malvasia and muscat. Unusual, to say the least. We bought our grapes late and took what we could get.

If you've been making wine and using oak for years you have the knowledge to pick one over the other. I suppose I could do some more digging and try to figure out what commercial winemakers use for these grapes. Well, for grenache, at least. Finding a commercial black malvasia done as a varietal isn't that easy and there isn't much written about it.

The basic question is, how do you choose the oak? The second question is how to conduct a taste test in advance of choosing the oak. That would be strictly for flavors and tannin.

I realize that tasting is important. Once the oak is chosen we can taste to guess when we're happy with the level of oak. We can figure out when the wine has the depth of "oakiness" and the amount of tannin, and other flavors that we think is right.

We're fine with booking a trip on the trouser airline, but we want to know how to buy the tickets.

 

[bluecrab]

@distancerunner I don't know if this will meet your needs, but this is how I determined which oak I prefer.

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/oak-experiment.71465/

 

[winemaker81]

Which oak to use is subjective, as American and French will both work, but which is better is determined by your tastes. If you're looking at "traditional", Grenache is French/Spanish and Black Malvasia is generally Mediterranean, so IMO French oak is called for.

Which oak to use is affected by grape variety as well. In general I find that I like Zinfandel better in American oak, Merlot in French. But I can find counter-examples, so there is no clear cut answer.

Some times we just make a decision and wing it. Yeah, I understand that isn't all that helpful to you.

However, @bluecrab's experiment with a single cube in bottles is a great way to do it. You do not need to start oaking immediately. Once the wine is clear, bottle 3 to 6 bottles with each type of oak. I'd taste test at 4, 8, and 12 weeks. Make a decision based upon that.

Figuring out how much to use is tough. I use oak cubes and found a reference that suggested 2 oz for 5 gallons of wine. 6 oz in a 54 liter neutral barrel for 3-4 months was good (for my taste).

 

[distancerunner]

Very much agree that oak is subjective. Since we're dealing with grapes that are used in France, Spain, and Italy the choice leans toward French. But I'd rather try both French and American. Don't know why, don't even have a hunch. What I learned from some Master Beekeepers is that, if you're not playing with your bees you're not learning. So, American oak, too.

Thank you, Bluecrab for the link to your experiment. That's exactly the kind of thing that I am looking for. Since we're ready to rack of the lees this week we'll try it. And thank you, 81, for pointing out that we can start the experiments now. When I first read through I thought we'd have to wait until spring.

A couple more questions.

Since we're going to put the experiments in individual bottles, should we attempt to degass the wine?

Should we use a regular cork, or something like a tasting cork or an expansion stopper?

 

[winemaker81]

For the experiment, you want clear, degassed wine. CO2 will possibly skew results, and in any case, you can't safely bottle it without making your very own grenade or volcano.

I'd probably use a regular cork, but anything that seals the bottle will work. This is not a long-term project, so you could put an airlock on the bottles. However, the disadvantage of an airlock is you have to watch the water level.

 

[bluecrab]

I agree with winemaker81. Please report back on your results.

 

[distancerunner]

Duh. I have drilled #2 stoppers and plenty of air locks.

Report back? Count on it.

 

[JohnT]

When it came to oak, the first question I had was "to oak or not to oak". So, I made a 2 carboy test of the same wine, on with, and one without. I then did a blind tasting with a number of my friends. All of them preferred the oaked version. Personally, I agreed wit them. OK, my first question was answered.

Now, the second question was much harder. What type of oak, what form of oak, and what kind or toast?

For me, this changes with the wine in am making and is also according to my own personal tastes. For a chardonnay, for example, I like a light toasted American oak for a "raw" wood type of contribution. For a light red, I like to go with a Hungarian medium toast for a, well, lighter/more vanillia/woodsy contribution. For a darker red, I tend to go with a more darker toast for a more smokey/chocolate/coffee contribution.

The third decision is how much you want your oak to contribute. I do change the amount of oak depending on my mood and will rack off the oak when I find that the wine is "there" as I taste it.

In short, the first question is ... What do I like. If you are iffy about the answer, then go winery hopping. Taste a bunch of wines and be sure to ask the duration, variety, and toast that was used for each wine. I still do this after 30 years and even keep a note book.

 

[distancerunner]

We racked out of cold storage two days ago. Washed a lot of tartrate out of the carboys. Is there any reason to capture and process the tartrate?

All of the wines have finished MLF.

We drew off samples of two wines and placed on two separate varieties of oak "bean" (Twenty years later still wondering, why are they called "beans?" They're cubes, more or less.) in each bottle under an air lock. In four weeks we'll taste and see.

 

[distancerunner]

As promised:

We drew off each wine into a 750 ml. bottle and placed one cube in each sample. Two samples of each variety, one with French and one with American oak. Both medium toast plus.

At two and four weeks there was very little oak noticed in the samples.

We tasted again at eight weeks. Still not much. We decided to wait.

Three days ago, at twelve weeks (to the day, totally accidental), bingo! The oak is balanced to a little bit over-oaked. The tannin is pronounced.

There is a thread on this board that asserts that the wine near the oak tends to be over-oaked and that the wine that is not tends to have minimal oak qualities. The reason advanced is that there are no convection currents in bulked stored wine, so the effect tend to be localized. Seems to make sense. At least to someone who last took chemistry when there were lines at the gas pumps.

So we gently agitated the wine in the samples. No difference. However, these are relatively small samples. We will sample the bulked wine both as is and gently stirred to test this theory for ourselves.

Two observations that are important. The first is that the over all flavor of the samples is that of wine bottled too early/did not go through bulk aging. The difference between the wine in the experiment and the bulk stored wine was marked. The bulk aged wine, depending on the variety or blend, shows fruit, more or less complex flavors, and good mouthfeel. The stuff in the experiment is plonk. Plus, the periodic sampling introduces air. Depending on the bottle, the oxidation is between somewhat acceptable if consumed now and not on your tin type.

Another thing that came out of this experiment is that different oak species really do taste different. The effect on the varieties and blend are marked. While both of the beans used are acceptable, on the varietals there was a clear winner each time. Curiously, it was much tougher to choose for the blend. So we split the decision and the containers. Some get American, some get French.

Since we made a second run wine of one of the varietals and the blends, we will continue to make notes on the oak as we go. The second run wines will probably be bottled right before the crush in the fall. The first run wines will stay in bulk until at least December unless there is some kind of problem.

I'll continue to post the (subjective) results.

In the meantime, I wonder about under, over, and getting the oak just right. What is the effect of time on oak? Does over-oaked wine mellow with time? Is over-oaking a strategy? Is under-oaking a good idea, and if so, when and on what? So many questions.

 

[CDrew]

Over-oaking to me is a significant risk. I used too much medium plus oak in 20 gallons of 2018 Primitivo that I am still tasting, regretting and thinking the oak is too much. There is this background camp fire quality that has gotten better but never gone away. If I decant before drinking it's better, or if I use one of those aerator things it's much better. My wife calls it Chateau Pliewood. Never making that mistake again! (though one of my friends likes it and I've given him a couple of cases-so tastes vary)

But-Beware of any oak toast over medium toast, and if you use it, do it carefully. You can always come back with more if your first addition is not enough. For me, I want mellowed out oak fully integrated with the fruit because I want to drink wine and not bark. The last 2 years I've used the Stavin oak bean calculator and a general idea is 25% new oak is the middle and I'll adjust up for a big wine like Syrah to 35% or so, and down for a lighter bodied wine-15-20% for Sangiovese. I've been quite happy with the results.

 

[Tim3]

I built a calculator which helps you understand the oak levels you might want. It’s posted on the forum, linked below.

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/thre...rel-program-with-oak-cubes.73487/#post-789820
The 2 oz oak cubes per 5 gallons is a very good rule of thumb, but everyone’s tastes are different. Find a wine that you believe is perfectly oaked, and read the winemakers description to understand the barrel program in use. You can then use the model to replicate those phenolics.

 

[winemaker81]

There is a thread on this board that asserts that the wine near the oak tends to be over-oaked and that the wine that is not tends to have minimal oak qualities. The reason advanced is that there are no convection currents in bulked stored wine, so the effect tend to be localized. Seems to make sense. At least to someone who last took chemistry when there were lines at the gas pumps.

That's me. I got the same result in both 54 and 19 liter containers, using cubes which sank to the bottom. In a separate experiment using oak stix that suspend from the stopper, the wine before and after stirring was only marginally different. I suspect that withdrawing the stix to take a sample stirred the wine sufficiently to make the wine more homogeneous. Given my results so far, I'm not surprised that a small sample didn't show much differentiation.

 

[distancerunner]

That's me. I got the same result in both 54 and 19 liter containers, using cubes which sank to the bottom. In a separate experiment using oak stix that suspend from the stopper, the wine before and after stirring was only marginally different. I suspect that withdrawing the stix to take a sample stirred the wine sufficiently to make the wine more homogeneous. Given my results so far, I'm not surprised that a small sample didn't show much differentiation.

Thank you for replying. I'm glad that was your experience. When we sample out of the 19 and 23's we'll do before and after stir samples.