Operation Massa Family Red - Muscat-Alicante-Zinfandel

[Ajmassa]

I've also been using Lallzyme EX, Opti Red and FT Rouge as well as rehydrating with Go Ferm Protect and add Fermaid O at or close to 1/3 sugar depletion. My ferments are cool with the wine in the 70-80* range but I ferment in 6 gallon buckets. Still debating the co inoculation thing though and haven't done it yet.

It’s fun experimenting but I hate not having a control batch to know the actual differences. — I read GF Protect is more for hydrating a yeast starter for stuck ferments. Tho I did use once by accident. The world did not end.
I kinda backed off the extra tannin additions this time (rouge, opti-red etc..) based off advice from JohnT. When I met up with him I had the pleasure of sampling wines right from the tanks and barrels. The wines were quite impressive, and the color was such a vibrant brilliant purple hue. And he added nothing. Said if he’s got real nice healthy fruit then isn’t concerned with any additions- enzymes included. Everyone’s got their style. Just trying to find my way!

 

[Donz]

I’ve never added any enzymes and always had nice colour. Always 7 days on the skins though.

You dinner looks good!

 

[mainshipfred]

I'm with you on the control batch. I just don't make enough of one varietal to do it. I never used to use Go Ferm. First just sprinkled on the yeast them started rehydrating with water Then after helping out at the winery I saw they used Go Ferm. To tell you the truth it's just fun watching the yeast grow in it and having nice cap the next morning is kind of a neat feeling. I use Opti Red with the Lallzyme because all the literature says they work well together and breaking down the cell walls with enzymes can't hurt. The FT Rouge is supposed to be for tannin structure but probably not necessary if the fruit is good. It's just a little more insurance for me. As you said it's a style thing and I'm still trying to find mine as well.

 

[Ajmassa]

I'm with you on the control batch. I just don't make enough of one varietal to do it. I never used to use Go Ferm. First just sprinkled on the yeast them started rehydrating with water Then after helping out at the winery I saw they used Go Ferm. To tell you the truth it's just fun watching the yeast grow in it and having nice cap the next morning is kind of a neat feeling. I use Opti Red with the Lallzyme because all the literature says they work well together and breaking down the cell walls with enzymes can't hurt. The FT Rouge is supposed to be for tannin structure but probably not necessary if the fruit is good. It's just a little more insurance for me. As you said it's a style thing and I'm still trying to find mine as well.

I was talkin specifically GoFerm-Protect vs just GoFerm. I’ve got both and used both without thought until I realized they weren’t actually the same thing.
And yea normally I use the tannin too. Actually I did this time as well. Just as an extra. Had an 8g packet of booster rouge leftover so I just tossed it in.
Aside from Morewine- if you check out https://www.lodiwinelabs.com/ they’ve got an insane amount of tannins they offer.

 

[Mac60]

I've also been using Lallzyme EX, Opti Red and FT Rouge as well as rehydrating with Go Ferm Protect and add Fermaid O at or close to 1/3 sugar depletion. My ferments are cool with the wine in the 70-80* range but I ferment in 6 gallon buckets. Still debating the co inoculation thing though and haven't done it yet.

Fred,
It's going to be very hard for me to change my schedule that I followed this year. It was perfection every step. The only issues I had was temperature control with large fermentation tubs, they do get hot 90-94F.
I did need to cool them down. I never got any So2 gas, Using Ferm-K (2) additions using split batches D254 and D80 fermented dry in 7 days, let it sit with skins another 2 days. MLF complete in 13 days after adding CH16. Its really hard to mess with success. I documented every step, temp and addition. Going to Rack and So2 in 3 Weeks I'll get some pictures and have a good feel for the taste, bu it taste good right now.

 

[CDrew]

Cabernet
Saturday I pumped out the free run filling the demijohn. Had a lot goin on Saturday and lots of prep so decided to press Sunday(protected skins with some plastic overnight)
Barely enough room but got em all loaded. Pressed. Broke up entire cake and pressed again. Skins not typical mush. I wonder if my enzymes lost potency since packet was leftover from May. All total I got 15gal of free run and pressed out another 8 gal. Yielding 23 gallons from ~30gal of must from 288lbs of grapes.
It’s been .994 since late Friday. By Monday night MLF was visible. The wine with heavy lees I noticed if I gave the carboy a little shimmy then the MLf torpedos would blast out leaving a trail off lees. Always thought that looked pretty cool.



I can only gauge from my own experiences, but with grape wines I notice a point soon after AF when the wine already tastes good enough to drink. Lasts Couple weeks maybe. So when another 1/2 gal of very clear wine dropped out while I was cleaning—-it paired perfectly with my late lasagna dinner. Would have never known it was only 8 days old!
View attachment 51911
View attachment 51912
View attachment 51913
Just made it! Got it all in one shot.
View attachment 51914View attachment 51915
....yeah, I know. No judgements pls!
View attachment 51916
The yield (minus 1 demi and the white)
View attachment 51917
This is why I use plain water until after MLf is complete!

So this is all awesome. The Barbie plate was a surprise. Do you have daughters? Lol. There has to be a story there. I mean, why does a New Jersey dude, eat off a Barbie plate? Not judging, just curious. I do have a daughter and have eaten off ceramic creations of all types.

I have noted the same thing, that after messing with the wine for a day, drinking that wine, even though immature, is great with dinner that same night. Imagine how good it will be in a year (or two). But Lasagna is a favorite and would make any wine outstanding.

Realize you could use Star San in your lock, which even if sucked into the wine, will not alter it's flavor or SO2 level. The other "S" style of fermentation lock works better anyway. Even better are the 1 way bungs. I've pretty much gone 100% there after the first day or two.

 

[Ajmassa]

Lol. Yup. She just turned 11.

And I’m down to the bottom of the drawer for airlocks. Using all the ones mentioned.
I only use water in the airlock till after MLf. Them kmeta. Once co2 is all gone I’ll use the vented if any are available.

 

[mainshipfred]

I was talkin specifically GoFerm-Protect vs just GoFerm. I’ve got both and used both without thought until I realized they weren’t actually the same thing.
And yea normally I use the tannin too. Actually I did this time as well. Just as an extra. Had an 8g packet of booster rouge leftover so I just tossed it in.
Aside from Morewine- if you check out https://www.lodiwinelabs.com/ they’ve got an insane amount of tannins they offer.

First time I've looked at Lodi Labs site. Whole new learning curve since they have products other then Scott's and Lalleman products.

 

[mainshipfred]

Fred,
It's going to be very hard for me to change my schedule that I followed this year. It was perfection every step. The only issues I had was temperature control with large fermentation tubs, they do get hot 90-94F.
I did need to cool them down. I never got any So2 gas, Using Ferm-K (2) additions using split batches D254 and D80 fermented dry in 7 days, let it sit with skins another 2 days. MLF complete in 13 days after adding CH16. Its really hard to mess with success. I documented every step, temp and addition. Going to Rack and So2 in 3 Weeks I'll get some pictures and have a good feel for the taste, bu it taste good right now.

I'm with you on regime thing and my protocol is similar to yours except for the batch sizes. Being new to this it was only this past spring that I felt comfortable with what I was doing, this fall even more so. Whether my methods are valid or a waist of time only time will tell. I can't imagine how the use of additives can hurt, just insurance for me.

 

[celladwella]

Cabernet
Saturday I pumped out the free run filling the demijohn. Had a lot goin on Saturday and lots of prep so decided to press Sunday(protected skins with some plastic overnight)
Barely enough room but got em all loaded. Pressed. Broke up entire cake and pressed again. Skins not typical mush. I wonder if my enzymes lost potency since packet was leftover from May. All total I got 15gal of free run and pressed out another 8 gal. Yielding 23 gallons from ~30gal of must from 288lbs of grapes.
It’s been .994 since late Friday. By Monday night MLF was visible. The wine with heavy lees I noticed if I gave the carboy a little shimmy then the MLf torpedos would blast out leaving a trail off lees. Always thought that looked pretty cool.
I can only gauge from my own experiences, but with grape wines I notice a point soon after AF when the wine already tastes good enough to drink. Lasts Couple weeks maybe. So when another 1/2 gal of very clear wine dropped out while I was cleaning—-it paired perfectly with my late lasagna dinner. Would have never known it was only 8 days old!
View attachment 51911
View attachment 51912
View attachment 51913
Just made it! Got it all in one shot.
View attachment 51914View attachment 51915
....yeah, I know. No judgements pls!
View attachment 51916
The yield (minus 1 demi and the white)
View attachment 51917
This is why I use plain water until after MLf is complete!

AJ you use the AiO wine pump
With the demijohns? I thought someone said you can’t something about glass being thin. Any problems with using on that ?

 

[Ajmassa]

AJ you use the AiO wine pump
With the demijohns? I thought someone said you can’t something about glass being thin. Any problems with using on that ?

Yup “someone” did say that— the creator/owner Steve! (@vacuumpumpman). I’m pretty sure that’s just to cover his *** in case of extreme circumstances tho.
He told me if I chose to go against that advice* then he recommended 1/2” tubing instead of 3/8” to ease the pressure.
All that said—- I’ve been using the AIO on both carboys and demijohns since I got it with no issue. I use the same 3/8” tubing for both, and just switch out the bungs and have longer 3/8” racking canes for the demijohns.

 

[Ajmassa]

1 issue I had was the solid bung. The first one I made for the demi was a solid #11 with an airlock hole. I drilled another hole to mimic the AIO carboy bung. But one of my demi’s openings is a hair bigger and under vacuum it pulled the bung way down into the neck. YUUUGE PIA to remove!
After that little debacle I bought the “universal” style #11 bung since they have a flange around the tops. Smooth sailing since then. Here’s a pic of the universal type I would suggest. And next to it is the initial one I drilled.

 

[celladwella]

Yup “someone” did say that— the creator/owner Steve! (@vacuumpumpma). I’m pretty sure that’s just to cover his *** in case of extreme circumstances tho.
He told me if I chose to go against that advice* then he recommended 1/2” tubing instead of 3/8” to ease the pressure.
All that said—- I’ve been using the AIO on both carboys and demijohns since I got it with no issue. I use the same 3/8” tubing for both, and just switch out the bungs and have longer 3/8” racking canes for the demijohns.

Thanks for the information. At least now I won’t have to bother my friends to help me lift those damn things anymore!

 

[celladwella]

1 issue I had was the solid bung. The first one I made for the demi was a solid #11 with an airlock hole. I drilled another hole to mimic the AIO carboy bung. But one of my demi’s openings is a hair bigger and under vacuum it pulled the bung way down into the neck. YUUUGE PIA to remove!
After that little debacle I bought the “universal” style #11 bung since they have a flange around the tops. Smooth sailing since then. Here’s a pic of the universal type I would suggest. And next to it is the initial one I drilled. View attachment 51964

Thanks again I can see that being the case I have pushed the one on the right in on more than one occasion

 

[Ajmassa]

Thanks for the information. At least now I won’t have to bother my friends to help me lift those damn things anymore!

Yeah man. I avoid lifting those at all costs. Every so often it happens tho. Not a 1 man job. Though I can lower it from table to floor if needed.
What’s cool about the AIO tho is you don’t ‘have’ to rack low to high. You can transfer side to side too. Theoretically never having to move a full one when racking.

 

[Ajmassa]

I racked the cab off the heavy lees this weekend. The main thing I wanted to see was the color extraction I end up with- but still gotta wait on that. Still looks light but I’m attributing that to all the co2 and I’ve kept the temps up for MLf so there’s still solids in suspension. Really hoping she darkens up. I also ran a baseline chroma test on all wines last night— will get to compare the coinnoculation from sequential of the family red with the results.
Only thing not racked yet is the demi cab. With no open demijohns its a hassle. But this morning the wine gods threw me a bone. I was given another 54L demi- clear glass and a spigot! That’ll be full of wine tonight after cleaning! An old family friend finally brought it into work to give me this morning. He’s a cop walkin the beat on Jewelers Row and I have a job in the area. Couldn’t have timed it better.

 

[Zintrigue]

Hey AJ, nice to see all your hard work. Thanks so much for all the pictures and information. I've never done an all grape ferment before, but your pictures and instructions give me the courage to try one day. Just have to get my hands on some grapes after we're done making sure all the doctors in the area have steak and lobster for dinner.

Love your lab; winemaking goals right there. I'd try to bribe my way into taking over half the garage, but not sure I'd want man glitter (saw dust) all over my equipment.

And my oldest daughter is 10, so I totally get the princess plate thing. Haha

 

[CDrew]

The main thing I wanted to see was the color extraction I end up with- but still gotta wait on that. Still looks light but I’m attributing that to all the co2 and I’ve kept the temps up for MLf so there’s still solids in suspension. Really hoping she darkens up. I also ran a baseline chroma test on all wines last night— will get to compare the coinnoculation from sequential of the family red with the results.
.

Interesting about the color (or lack of). I had a light color cab last year and a sort of light Primitivo/Zin. Using enzymes Lallemand EX and EX-V totally solved the color issue this year. And after this experience, I am 99% sure all the big commercial wineries use enzymes. Now the '17 Cab tastes pretty good, but if you had a glass of it you'd say it's light in color. I consider it a flaw. All red wine looks dark in the carboy once the solids settle out, but in the glass-not so much.

Regarding Demijon size containers-I was debating Demijons vs flex tanks vs Intellitanks. Went with the intelliTanks for the flexibility and sanitary standard fittings and for the fact they are rated to vacuum rack into them (because 15 gallons is too heavy to safely lift alone).

 

[Ajmassa]

Interesting about the color (or lack of). I had a light color cab last year and a sort of light Primitivo/Zin. Using enzymes Lallemand EX and EX-V totally solved the color issue this year. And after this experience, I am 99% sure all the big commercial wineries use enzymes. Now the '17 Cab tastes pretty good, but if you had a glass of it you'd say it's light in color. I consider it a flaw. All red wine looks dark in the carboy once the solids settle out, but in the glass-not so much.

It was more of a fakeout like I anticipated. Just racked the free run and much much darker. Concern over that aspect is completely gone now. The pressed wine I kept temps up a little more and I’m sure will darken in time as I let it cool to room temp.
At once point I was racking and went to transfer the 5L jug I had. Right away I was like “damn! Look how dark and purple and clear this one is!” And then I realized I grabbed the wrong jug! Lol. Was malbec from spring. Just a little. No harm done. Just funny.

 

[Ajmassa]

Hey AJ, nice to see all your hard work. Thanks so much for all the pictures and information. I've never done an all grape ferment before, but your pictures and instructions give me the courage to try one day. Just have to get my hands on some grapes after we're done making sure all the doctors in the area have steak and lobster for dinner.

Love your lab; winemaking goals right there. I'd try to bribe my way into taking over half the garage, but not sure I'd want man glitter (saw dust) all over my equipment.

And my oldest daughter is 10, so I totally get the princess plate thing. Haha

Very cool. I really have no intention here other than shooting the breeze about winemaking. Discussing different aspects or wherever the convo ends up going just for the fun of it.
I hope you do end up going the grape route at least once or twice just for the experience. We joined here similar time but kinda shifted to our own comfort zones. Such a great hobby with so many options. Which I think is cool. And Olivia also has some fun down here once in a while. Here she is showing me a cool trick with the panoramic setting. It’s a little distorted- but was a fun night. She’s not helping often so try to enjoy the times that she does.