Ph Black Raspberry Must
- Thread starter wetneck
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What does the wine taste like? I'm guessing it's bland with a pH that high.
The simplest thing is to add tartaric acid. Warning: DO NOT blindly add acid to a wine, as it's easy to add too much.
Adding 1 g/l should reduce the pH by 0.1, and if you're working in US gallons, that's a scant 4 g in 1 gallon.
According to a chart published by Presque Isle, 1.3 g tartaric acid = 1/4 tsp, so 3/4 tsp per gallon will drop your pH to 4.0. This formula indicates that to drop the pH to 3.7, you need to add 3 tsp tartaric acid per gallon.
However -- heeding my above warning, don't add that much. I'd add just 3/4 tsp per gallon, stir well, and let the wine rest for 24 hours. Check the pH to see how it changed and taste the wine. Repeat as needed, paying attention to how much the pH drops after each addition and how you like the taste.
Remember my mantra -- it's easier to add more than to take some out.
The simplest thing is to add tartaric acid. Warning: DO NOT blindly add acid to a wine, as it's easy to add too much.
Adding 1 g/l should reduce the pH by 0.1, and if you're working in US gallons, that's a scant 4 g in 1 gallon.
According to a chart published by Presque Isle, 1.3 g tartaric acid = 1/4 tsp, so 3/4 tsp per gallon will drop your pH to 4.0. This formula indicates that to drop the pH to 3.7, you need to add 3 tsp tartaric acid per gallon.
However -- heeding my above warning, don't add that much. I'd add just 3/4 tsp per gallon, stir well, and let the wine rest for 24 hours. Check the pH to see how it changed and taste the wine. Repeat as needed, paying attention to how much the pH drops after each addition and how you like the taste.
Remember my mantra -- it's easier to add more than to take some out.
What does the wine taste like? I'm guessing it's bland with a pH that high.
The simplest thing is to add tartaric acid. Warning: DO NOT blindly add acid to a wine, as it's easy to add too much.
Adding 1 g/l should reduce the pH by 0.1, and if you're working in US gallons, that's a scant 4 g in 1 gallon.
According to a chart published by Presque Isle, 1.3 g tartaric acid = 1/4 tsp, so 3/4 tsp per gallon will drop your pH to 4.0. This formula indicates that to drop the pH to 3.7, you need to add 3 tsp tartaric acid per gallon.
However -- heeding my above warning, don't add that much. I'd add just 3/4 tsp per gallon, stir well, and let the wine rest for 24 hours. Check the pH to see how it changed and taste the wine. Repeat as needed, paying attention to how much the pH drops after each addition and how you like the taste.
Remember my mantra -- it's easier to add more than to take some out.
Well its not wine yet, it just started fermenting last night. I couldnt find an answer so i just tossed in some mangrove jack CY17 yeast.
I looked and looked but couldn't really find any information about setting your must PH pre fermentation. Only thing i could find was an answer from Google saying yeast dont like a ph above 4.
I guess its game on now, it just started kicking a couple hours ago. Only took about 9 or 10 hours to get going.
Thanks for responding.
High pH is an environment in which bacteria can grow more easily. How large is the batch?
The must is in a 5 gallon food grade bucket. So about 5 gallons.
After pressing, probably 3.5 to 4 gallons.
Adding acid during fermentation can negatively affect the fermentation. I'd be tempted to add 1/2 tsp tartaric per day during stirring/punch down, as it's slight enough that it shouldn't harm the fermentation. Check the pH, and when the pH hits 3.9, stop additions.
After pressing, adjust acid down in small increments.
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Thanks for your help, its very much appreciated. These are probably stupid questions but ive tried to find answers to and are a little confusing to me.
So from now on i should use tartaric acid to adjust high ph musts prior to fermentation and set it to the desired PH for the type of wine im making?
What about malic and citric acid? Is there a reason to use those pre ferment?
What is best to use if my PH is too acidic?
No, your questions are good questions. There is surprisingly little good information that is intelligible to beginners, while the net is full of bad advice. Making it worse is that there is typically more than one valid answer to a question.
I say this frequently -- understand "why" an action is taken, and it will help you decide what you need to do.
Tartaric is the predominant acid in most wines, so it's typically recommended. Other acids can be used, but they have side effects, e.g., citric acid is the predominant acid in citrus fruits, malic acid is what gives apples their tang, and "acid blend" varies so much by vendor that you have no idea what you're using.
Unless the must is really acidic (< 3.0), don't mess with it prior to fermentation. pH will rise and you may be doing the wrong thing. Post fermentation?
1. Cold stabilization / crashing. Chill the wine to < 40 F / 4 C (closer to freezing is better) for a week or two. Excess tartaric will drop in the form of potassium bitartrate crystals. Rack off the crystal before the wine warms up. This may reduce acidity, and has the beneficial side effect of helping clear the wine.
2. Blending. Blend with one or more low acid wines.
3. Backsweetening. Sugar and acid balance each other, so stabilize with potassium sorbate + K-meta, and backsweeten to taste. I have a commercial Vignoles that is listed as "sweet", but the wine is acidic enough that it tastes off-dry.
4. Potassium bicarbonate. This additive reduces acidity, but it's last on my list. It works, but use less than you think, and taste.
Thanks again, i mean big time! That is easy to understand and it really helped me out.
You are correct, ive watched a lot of YouTube videos and read a lot of bs and there is little info about PH.
I watched a few different channels and lots of wine was started but you almost never hear squat about must PH and if you do its very confusing. Like the people making those videos probably don't understand or want us to.
Hopefully this will find its way to other rookies trying to figure this PH thing out. And that acid info... i feel like im on my way to make some good wine now.
Thanks again!
You are correct, ive watched a lot of YouTube videos and read a lot of bs and there is little info about PH.
I watched a few different channels and lots of wine was started but you almost never hear squat about must PH and if you do its very confusing. Like the people making those videos probably don't understand or want us to.
Hopefully this will find its way to other rookies trying to figure this PH thing out. And that acid info... i feel like im on my way to make some good wine now.
Thanks again!
A lot of us shudder when we read, "I watched a video on YouTube, and ...." There are also a lot of misinformed blogs.
The value of the forum is that a lot of us continue to research things, present findings, and spot check each other. If I say something wrong, the others will be on me like flamingos on a tyrannosaur.
I haven't posted this meme in a while ... thanks for giving me the opportunity!
The main acid in raspberries is citric acid: A Guide to Common Fruit Acids So you might consider adding mostly citric acid. I usually try to add the same type of acid found in the fruit because the type of acid affects the flavor. Adding citric acid to cider would just be weird. I use malic acid for my cider because that is the main acid in apples.
If you want to change the flavor, blending different types of acid can help you shape the flavor profile of the wine. Using tartaric acid will make it taste a little more like grape wine.
As an experiment, mix an equal amount of each type of acid in three different glasses of water. Taste it so that you can identify the flavor imparted by each type of acid. You can also take three small samples of your wine and add a different type of acid in each one to see which you like best.
@wetneck, go with Raptor's advice instead of mine.
BABRU
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Very interesting and informative. I’ve been blindly following my Black Raspberry recipe for years just adding the specified amount of acid blend to the must pre-ferment without ever checking the ph. Didn’t know any better but results have been excellent. Same when I make wine from grape juice buckets; I just ask supplier to confirm that acid has been adjusted and go with it. An Enologist I am not.
Keep in mind that this is not necessarily a problem. Some old recipes are what someone got to work once. Others are the result of years of experimentation. It's hard to tell which is which.
K-meta is case in point -- the rule is 1/4 tsp per 5/6 gallons. This produces a good level of SO2.
I do not own a pH meter, and use test strips when I feel it's appropriate. I adjust acid by taste.
I question your pH meter calibration/ reading on black raspberry. It may not be as bad as you think. My crop; (Wisconsin)
2014,, pH 3.59 TA ?
2018,, pH 3.58 TA 1.49%
2019,, pH 3.48 TA 1.81%
2020,, pH 3.87 TA 2.08%
2022,, pH 3.70 TA ,, wild collected at church
2022,, pH 3.64 ,, garden variety
Some variables producing pH / TA; in high sun ripens better so you get less acid, picking early gives more acid.
pH 5 works for shorter shelf life beverages like beer, your biggest risk probably is air exposure giving oxidized ethyl alcohol or micro infection.
2014,, pH 3.59 TA ?
2018,, pH 3.58 TA 1.49%
2019,, pH 3.48 TA 1.81%
2020,, pH 3.87 TA 2.08%
2022,, pH 3.70 TA ,, wild collected at church
2022,, pH 3.64 ,, garden variety
Some variables producing pH / TA; in high sun ripens better so you get less acid, picking early gives more acid.
pH 5 works for shorter shelf life beverages like beer, your biggest risk probably is air exposure giving oxidized ethyl alcohol or micro infection.
I measured my new “planted this spring” Prime-Ark Freedom Primocane berries yesterday, just squeezed juice nothing else:
pH - 3.3
TA - 9.0
Brix - 9.0
These guys are pretty tart and I hope as the vines mature the sugar comes up.
Scooter68
Fruit "Wine" Maker
Lessons to be learned out of this:
1) ALWAYS measure pH before adding any acid to ANY wine must.
2) Adjust and get stable reading of pH before starting the fermentation.
3) NEVER rely on pH measurements once fermentation has started. The very significant production of co2 during fermentation will give a false high acidity readings. (Making one think there is more acid in the wine must)
4) As suggested make adjustments to pH slowly - Commonly use 1/3 to no more than 1/2 the calculated amount of acid or Bicarbonate at a time. Wait for the must to fully adjust and stabilize before proceeding.
1) ALWAYS measure pH before adding any acid to ANY wine must.
2) Adjust and get stable reading of pH before starting the fermentation.
3) NEVER rely on pH measurements once fermentation has started. The very significant production of co2 during fermentation will give a false high acidity readings. (Making one think there is more acid in the wine must)
4) As suggested make adjustments to pH slowly - Commonly use 1/3 to no more than 1/2 the calculated amount of acid or Bicarbonate at a time. Wait for the must to fully adjust and stabilize before proceeding.
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Of course you really meant a false low pH reading, indicating more acid that there really is
That means that during fermentation, if the pH reading is too high, it is really too high because it is actually probably higher than it would be w/o CO2. So you can safely add small amounts of acid during fermentation. But I would be hesitant to add Potassium Bicarbonate at that time to raise the pH.
The best time to balance the pH is before you pitch the yeast.
Scooter68
Fruit "Wine" Maker
If his wine is giving a reading of 4.1 during fermentation - it definitely is not acidic enough, but; adding acid during fermentation is a 'iffy' proposition as you can't be certain to what extent the co2 is affecting the reading. (His wine could actually have started out with a reading higher (less acidic) than 4.1)
Other than poor taste qualities the greatest issue to that wine is the potential for spoilage during the ferment.
As Raptor said your wine must should be balanced properly BEFORE starting the fermentation. If the wine must is not acidic enough you might not get the chance to get it right after the ferment due to the wine spoiling. While the fermentation process is pretty forgiving, it's not wise to push your luck.
You don't want to be like that young army lieutenant - In his evaluation his commander wrote: Lieutenant McCoy learns from his mistakes and never repeats one. He has, however; made just about every mistake possible."
Other than poor taste qualities the greatest issue to that wine is the potential for spoilage during the ferment.
As Raptor said your wine must should be balanced properly BEFORE starting the fermentation. If the wine must is not acidic enough you might not get the chance to get it right after the ferment due to the wine spoiling. While the fermentation process is pretty forgiving, it's not wise to push your luck.
You don't want to be like that young army lieutenant - In his evaluation his commander wrote: Lieutenant McCoy learns from his mistakes and never repeats one. He has, however; made just about every mistake possible."
