Playing with yeast

[Laura Or]

Hi everyone,

I'm a newbie to wine making
Tried several WE and RJS in the past few months and I'm really glad with the result.
Also I tried the Amarone WE private reserve and filtered the other day, the taste was far beyond my expectations. The leathery tobacco taste this early is the taste I was looking for!
This kit had two different yeasts. So I'm more and more intrigued in trying to replace or add another yeast beside the EC-1118
Any thoughts or recommendation on this?
We're thinking about buying the CC Amarone but would really like to tweak the yeast because the kit only has the EC-1118
Thank you in advance and Happy New year!

 

[sour_grapes]

Welcome to WMT!

Sure, swapping yeasts is an easy first tweak. I routinely swap yeasts (but I have to say that I don't think it makes a huge difference). I usually use BM45 on big Italian reds, but supposedly BM4x4 gives the same effect but is safer.

 

[Laura Or]

Welcome to WMT!

Sure, swapping yeasts is an easy first tweak. I routinely swap yeasts (but I have to say that I don't think it makes a huge difference). I usually use BM45 on big Italian reds, but supposedly BM4x4 gives the same effect but is safer.

Thank you!
Would you add the BM4x4 with the EC1118 or swap yeasts completely?
Any thoughts on Pinot noir?

 

[Swedeman]

Any thoughts on Pinot noir?

Yeah, Lalvin RC 212 for sure.

 

[sour_grapes]

Thank you!
Would you add the BM4x4 with the EC1118 or swap yeasts completely?
Any thoughts on Pinot noir?

In general, don't add two yeasts. Some strains excrete what is called a "killer factor," which kills yeast in other strains that are susceptible to it. (There is a 3rd class of yeast strain, which neither excrete the killer factor nor are they susceptible to it.) EC-1118 is a killer factor yeast.

Even in absence of a killer factor, you generally don't get what you think you may be getting by using two yeast strains. One will generally outcompete the other and dominate the fermentation.

Now I will make this even more confusing. BM4x4 is a mix of two yeasts. But they were selected by Lalvin to work together. We don't know what the two strains are (proprietary info).

Bottom line: use BM4x4 by itself.

 

[Laura Or]

In general, don't add two yeasts. Some strains excrete what is called a "killer factor," which kills yeast in other strains that are susceptible to it. (There is a 3rd class of yeast strain, which neither excrete the killer factor nor are they susceptible to it.) EC-1118 is a killer factor yeast.

Even in absence of a killer factor, you generally don't get what you think you may be getting by using two yeast strains. One will generally outcompete the other and dominate the fermentation.

Now I will make this even more confusing. BM4x4 is a mix of two yeasts. But they were selected by Lalvin to work together. We don't know what the two strains are (proprietary info).

Bottom line: use BM4x4 by itself.

Thank you so much!

 

[BernardSmith]

Hi Laura Or and welcome. I agree, I would completely substitute any yeast rather than combine them. My guess is that most kits include EC 1118 because that yeast will ferment under just about any condition and the manufacturers of the kits need to assume that many of those using their kits are making wine for the very first time. The fewer problems that those wine makers need to address the more likely it will be that their finished wines will be enjoyed and the more likely it will be that they will buy a second or subsequent kit.
That said, I am not so sure that particular lab -cultured yeasts will bring out specific flavor notes in specific grapes though clearly, the labs are culturing yeasts associated with different grapes in different locations grown under different conditions but the cultured yeasts, I think, tend to be more associated with more macro considerations - red wines, white wines, acidic wines, wines where hydrogen sulfide production might be expected; wines made in lower or higher temperatures, wines with poor mouthfeel and so forth. Check out the spec sheets published by the labs.
Good luck and a happy - and a safe - New Year.

 

[Laura Or]

Hi Laura Or and welcome. I agree, I would completely substitute any yeast rather than combine them. My guess is that most kits include EC 1118 because that yeast will ferment under just about any condition and the manufacturers of the kits need to assume that many of those using their kits are making wine for the very first time. The fewer problems that those wine makers need to address the more likely it will be that their finished wines will be enjoyed and the more likely it will be that they will buy a second or subsequent kit.
That said, I am not so sure that particular lab -cultured yeasts will bring out specific flavor notes in specific grapes though clearly, the labs are culturing yeasts associated with different grapes in different locations grown under different conditions but the cultured yeasts, I think, tend to be more associated with more macro considerations - red wines, white wines, acidic wines, wines where hydrogen sulfide production might be expected; wines made in lower or higher temperatures, wines with poor mouthfeel and so forth. Check out the spec sheets published by the labs.
Good luck and a happy - and a safe - New Year.

Thank you for the information!
I've read many articles saying that yeast have an impact on the resulting flavor. That's why I was interested to try some new stuff.
Happy and healthy new year to you too!

 

[Vinobeau]

IMO, the most telling procedure for evaluating yeast is to make two or more identical batches of the same wine, just using different yeasts.

 

[Johnd]

BM4x4 is a mix of two yeasts. But they were selected by Lalvin to work together. We don't know what the two strains are (proprietary info).

We do know that BM 45 is one of the yeasts in the blend, at least I think we know that, I just know I’ve read it somewhere. I’m going to try to find it.

Edit:

 

[sour_grapes]

We do know that BM 45 is one of the yeasts in the blend, at least I think we know that, I just know I’ve read it somewhere. I’m going to try to find it.

Ahh, right you are! I should have realized that.

 

[JohnW]

Hi everyone,

I'm a newbie to wine making
Tried several WE and RJS in the past few months and I'm really glad with the result.
Also I tried the Amarone WE private reserve and filtered the other day, the taste was far beyond my expectations. The leathery tobacco taste this early is the taste I was looking for!
This kit had two different yeasts. So I'm more and more intrigued in trying to replace or add another yeast beside the EC-1118
Any thoughts or recommendation on this?
We're thinking about buying the CC Amarone but would really like to tweak the yeast because the kit only has the EC-1118
Thank you in advance and Happy New year!

I'm a little late to the game here but I started the CC Amarone with BM4x4 back in February. Came out great but I plan to age it another year or so before I drink any more of it. I sometimes I split the juice into two batches and add a different yeast to each. Once the fermentation is complete I combine them and proceed. In theory this adds some complexity. I didn't do this with the Amarone because I would have had to divide up the grape skins (I basically a lazy person). I have several EC-1118 packets in my little fridge that came with purchased kits. Truthfully I have no idea how much difference the yeast makes but I do like to tinker so why not.

 

[Laura Or]

I'm a little late to the game here but I started the CC Amarone with BM4x4 back in February. Came out great but I plan to age it another year or so before I drink any more of it. I sometimes I split the juice into two batches and add a different yeast to each. Once the fermentation is complete I combine them and proceed. In theory this adds some complexity. I didn't do this with the Amarone because I would have had to divide up the grape skins (I basically a lazy person). I have several EC-1118 packets in my little fridge that came with purchased kits. Truthfully I have no idea how much difference the yeast makes but I do like to tinker so why not.

Apparently the cc Amarone is discontinued

 

[JohnW]

Apparently the cc Amarone is discontinued

It's my understanding that Global Industries, their parent company, discontinued all the Cellar Craft line of kits. I'm sure that their WinExpert Private Reserve line is equally delicious.

 

[Laura Or]

It's my understanding that Global Industries, their parent company, discontinued all the Cellar Craft line of kits. I'm sure that their WinExpert Private Reserve line is equally delicious.

The WE private reserve Amarone is truly amazing! My favorite to date.
I have only started making wine recently so I don't have a lot of references