Plum Wine Recipe (for critique)

[GreatNorthernLlama]

After a few mead runs to gain some basic experience, this beginner is back!
FINALLY ramping up for my plum wine, but I'm struggling to finalize a recipe and with a few basic questions. First few points that I've come to understand from reading the forums and now know:
- Add sugar in the primary to my target SG. Desire is to ferment dry, and back sweeten (targeting an initial SG of 1.095)
- shooting for an average of 6 lbs plums per gallon
- Plums are currently pitted, chopped and frozen in bags. First step will be to empty out to thaw and add 3 tsp pectic enzyme (1/10th tsp per lbs is what I've read) and macerate as it thaws before pouring the whole pulp into a brew bag as part of the must
- creating a yeast starter will be great for this
- Initial ferm bucket volume a little over 5 gallon to account for loss before racking off the lees

Knowing this, I've come up with the following recipe for a 5 gallon batch:
Stabilize must with campden and potassium sorbate of course
3 gallons water
25 lbs plums
3 tsp pectic enzyme
13 lbs sugar
Target SG 1.095

Yeast - EC118 (11g)
Nutrient - Fermaid O (13.75g divided into three rounds at 24h, 72h, and 1/3 sugar)

Process: I know press fruit, mix with water and sugar and stabilize. Same time make a yeast starter. Day 2 pitch yeast, and add nutrients.
I've got the following questions / issues with the recipe above
1- As mentioned my goal is a target SG above a flat amount of sugar. I assume I will keep the plums consistent and just adjust the amount of sugar to meet my target SG. I know this will be a lot of a kind of mad scientist mixing simple syrup and water into my must and re-checking the SG, so hope to get it pretty constant without ending up with a crazy large batch with a ton of loss
2- on that note, I used meadtools as an online calculator to estimate my batch. This calculates out to a massive 8 gallon batch with sounds crazy. Maybe someone else knows this is actually correct and I need to scale down everything?
3- Acid and Tannin - A question for later, likely post primary. I have an acid blend, as well as pure citric and tannic acid as well as tannins available to add. Looking for guidance on how one would go about introducing such additives.
4- Nutrients: I have fermaide O and DAP. Can Amazon Fermaide K. Would anyone recommend this and do a full Tosna 3.0?

Any insights appreciated.

 

[Ohio Bob]

Do NOT add sorbate now. It may completely shut down the yeast as it prevents yeast from reproducing.

I would use the calculator before going to the store to buy sugar. After that I would not rely on it. Add some syrup, check the SG, repeat. I add no water other than what’s used to make the sugar syrup. The last thing you want is an under-flavored must that will need fixing later.

I’ve had a ferment get to SG of 1.002 in 36 hours, so if I had waited until the 24 hour mark I would have missed the 1/3 sugar milestone. I suggest you stir 3-4x per day, measuring the Brix (I think that’s easier) or the SG.

For a workhorse yeast like EC1118, I don’t think it matters if you use Ferm O or K. I would use DAP if I had nothing else, it’s junk food for the yeast. Definitely add some tannin as well as oak chips, they will act as sacrifials to help prevent oxidation. They won’t add much flavor so don’t confuse them with aging tannins.

If you can get pH strips I would think that’s good enough to get your ferment going strongly. EC1118 probably doesn’t care what the pH is. Once the wine is bone dry you can back sweeten and/or acidify to taste. Taste matters more than a pH number.

 

[GreatNorthernLlama]

@ohioBob, thanks for the reply! Sorry yeah this I knew and mis typed. Only campden tablets for day 1.

Is a tosna schedule overkill then? Do you recommend just front loading nutrients and pitching with my yeast? Should I just go with ferm O (and at the amount suggested by the calculator)? Or sub some ferm O for DAP etc?

I'll pick up some oak chips tomorrow! That sounds perfect. Any recommended amount of this or tannins to add per gallon etc?

I'll probably update this thread daily with progress so the conversation about ph and adding acid will come. My pallet is a work in progress for sure though lol. I know I have a habit of overdoing it until whatever effect I'm going for is totally overdone. Ph strips might just keep me in check until I can develop a better taste

 

[Ohio Bob]

I think it’s best to use the dosage for all nutrients per the instructions on the packets. I don’t have them memorized. The sacrificial tannins/oak can be doubled/tripled without serious consequence, IMO. They are in contact for a short period of time, and will end up with the gross lees and get racked off within a few days.

I wouldn’t throw out your calculator, but I don’t think it’s neccesary. EC1118 ferments anything and your not dealing with a poor nutrient environment such as honey. Excess nutrient probably will drop out with the lees so over-dosing might not be a problem.

If you were fermenting lemon juice (high acid) or bananas (low acid) I would use pH strips to get the pH in a better range than what the raw fruit provides. Even my wild blackberries, which are really tart, don’t require any acid adjustment, just back sweetening after it’s bone dry.

 

[winemaker81]

There are numerous schools of thought regarding nutrients. I was originally taught to add all up front and let 'er rock!

However, in recent years there is sufficient evidence to indicate a staged approach is better, especially for high nutrient required strains. For anything with high needs, I add 50% more nutrient anyway -- having experienced H2S a few times, I am unanimous in believing I don't want it again (bonus points for folks that recognize that UK pop culture reference!)

Bob's point is a good one -- some of my ferments are fast enough, especially with overnight starters, that I'm past 50% depletion in 48 hours. FWK recommends Packet A (which by weight is probably 2/3 of the amount) up front and Packet C (remaining 1/3?) after 48 hours. I'm doing this rather than waiting for 1/3 depletion.

And I agree with Bob in that EC-1118 doesn't much care.

I searched for "best yeast for fruit wine" just for fun ... and the first item in the list was a WMT page from 2 years ago.

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/desired-yeast-for-fruit-wines.76326/

This might give you some ideas if you want to try something else. Note that RC-212 is high nutrient, so adding more nutrient is a good idea.

 

[Raptor99]

Knowing this, I've come up with the following recipe for a 5 gallon batch:
Stabilize must with campden and potassium sorbate of course
3 gallons water
25 lbs plums
3 tsp pectic enzyme
13 lbs sugar
Target SG 1.095

There are two ways that people talk about the ratio of fruit to water. One is X lbs. of fruit added to Y gal. of water. The other is to use X lbs. of fruit and then add water until the total volume is Y gals. I use the second method.

You could start with your plums, and add however much water is needed to reach 5 gallons. If you have a 5 gallon carboy that you want to use for secondary, you need to start with more than 5 gallons initially so that you have 5 gallons left after racking off the lees. You would need 6 or 6.5 gals. initially to get 5 gals. in secondary.

But I think that 25 lbs. of plums is a very light for 6.5 gals. in primary, so if I had 25 lbs. of plums I would shoot for 4 gals. initial volume and then do secondary in a 3 gal. carboy. That would give you a much more robust plum flavor. If your goal is 6 lbs. of plums per gallon, then 6 lbs. per gallon X 4 gallons initial volume = 24 lbs. of plums.

If you add a lot of water to your fruit, your wine will taste watered down.

 

[Hazelemere]

After a few mead runs to gain some basic experience, this beginner is back!
FINALLY ramping up for my plum wine, but I'm struggling to finalize a recipe and with a few basic questions. First few points that I've come to understand from reading the forums and now know:
- Add sugar in the primary to my target SG. Desire is to ferment dry, and back sweeten (targeting an initial SG of 1.095)
- shooting for an average of 6 lbs plums per gallon
- Plums are currently pitted, chopped and frozen in bags. First step will be to empty out to thaw and add 3 tsp pectic enzyme (1/10th tsp per lbs is what I've read) and macerate as it thaws before pouring the whole pulp into a brew bag as part of the must
- creating a yeast starter will be great for this
- Initial ferm bucket volume a little over 5 gallon to account for loss before racking off the lees

Knowing this, I've come up with the following recipe for a 5 gallon batch:
Stabilize must with campden and potassium sorbate of course
3 gallons water
25 lbs plums
3 tsp pectic enzyme
13 lbs sugar
Target SG 1.095

Yeast - EC118 (11g)
Nutrient - Fermaid O (13.75g divided into three rounds at 24h, 72h, and 1/3 sugar)

Process: I know press fruit, mix with water and sugar and stabilize. Same time make a yeast starter. Day 2 pitch yeast, and add nutrients.
I've got the following questions / issues with the recipe above
1- As mentioned my goal is a target SG above a flat amount of sugar. I assume I will keep the plums consistent and just adjust the amount of sugar to meet my target SG. I know this will be a lot of a kind of mad scientist mixing simple syrup and water into my must and re-checking the SG, so hope to get it pretty constant without ending up with a crazy large batch with a ton of loss
2- on that note, I used meadtools as an online calculator to estimate my batch. This calculates out to a massive 8 gallon batch with sounds crazy. Maybe someone else knows this is actually correct and I need to scale down everything?
3- Acid and Tannin - A question for later, likely post primary. I have an acid blend, as well as pure citric and tannic acid as well as tannins available to add. Looking for guidance on how one would go about introducing such additives.
4- Nutrients: I have fermaide O and DAP. Can Amazon Fermaide K. Would anyone recommend this and do a full Tosna 3.0?

Any insights appreciated.

what variety of plum do you have?

 

[BPL]

There are multiple ways to achieve similar results. Most everyone has a different method and how they make wine. I'm sure my methods are a different ball game than many others. So please take my opinions as food for thought and not necessarily "rules" or "best practices".

The following are notes that I have discovered in my wine making journey. Of course, YMMV.

I have made multiple batches of fruit wines including different types of plums. Specifically about plums.... In general, the tartness of the skins is carried over to the wine. To mellow that tartness, I use 71B yeast, pitched at the rate of 1g per gallon. My other go to yeast for country wines is D47. (I only use EC1118 for experimentation, and never for anything that is for consumption. EC1118 is a champagne yeast and I don't make champagne. )

Higher fruit to water ratio delivers more of what ever is in the fruit. If wanting more fruit taste, add more fruit. I typically ferment with skins and pulp in a nylon mesh bag. Depending on the fruit will determine how long the fruit bag stays in the must. For example, I'll leave peaches and pears fermenting from yeast pitch to a gravity of ~1.02. For plums, I'll pull the fruit bag much sooner, roughly between 1/2 and 3/4 sugar depletion. Pulling the fruit bag early when making plum wine, reduces the amount of tartness.

I control must temperature to UNDER 70*F, with 67*F being the set point. Using Fermaid O helps with the temperature spike within 24 hours of 1/3 sugar depletion. Fermaid K produces more of a temperature spike, while DAP is massive! IMHO, using DAP + EC1118 is a recipe for disaster and a flat(er) tasting wine . I understand the theory for multiple nutrient additions, but found that 2 equal doses, one at AF and one at 1/3 sugar depletion is satisfactory for excellent results.

If you want to get serious with the amounts of nutrients, I suggest investigating YAN calculators. You can find them on various web sites. I use the one found in the FermCalc app: https://fermcalc.com/FermCalcJS.html under the MISCELLANEOUS tab. All of the calculators ask for the starting YAN in the must. I don't measure YAN. I input the starting YAN at 150mg/L, which is roughly slightly lower than average/mid point of grapes. The number works for me for grape or country wines. >>>FYI, the 150mg/L number is over the starting YAN for most mead making calculators/websites. So using the same nutrient mead calculators will over dose the amount of nutrients for wine. One of the reasons why I don't use DAP. <<<< Fermaid O and Fermaid K work quite well if the amount used is slightly over or under the calculated amount. There are drop down selections for the type of nutrients, specific yeasts, number of additions etc.

My typical starting gravity country wine is ~1.090 to 1.095. Plums contain tons of pectin, so doubling or tripling the dose of pectic enzyme is recommended, about 1 to 1 1/2 teaspoons of PE/gallon OF THE TOTAL AMOUNT IN THE PRIMARY. Kmeta interferes with the efficiency of PE. I add PE 12 hours after the initial dose of Kmeta and before yeast pitch.

Be prepared for lots of lees. The PE will do it's job and break down the pulp and allow juice extraction.

Best of luck on your wine making journey.

Barry

 

[GreatNorthernLlama]

Pardon brevity and formatting. Writing on mobile while getting a 7 month old down to sleep which is about the only time I can look into recipes etc

Hazel, I've got Italian plums pitted chopped and thawing out



@raptor, I've been shooting for the later as well. Using the calculator it just shows a crazy high sg if I drop my water value down much more but I suppose that just corresponds with a drop in sugar as well. As I said, I'll focus on slowly adding both simple syrup and water to my preset amount of plums to get a target SG. Sounds like I'll end up closer to the stronger concentration as you mentioned but we shall see. I also plan on making a plum concentrate by repeatedly freezing and thawing a batch of plums (I've prob got another 40 to 50 lbs in the freezer, will have to check) and back sweetening with this concentrate. I hope if I found this and it feels watered down, that this would bring life to this wine. Continuing to play with the calculator 3 gallons water and 14 lbs sugar seems to get me closer to the starting volume and SG that's I'm looking for. This ratio plums should be pretty sufficient I think.

@WineMaker. Your post on your site of fixing country wines is where alot of this understanding came from. So first, thank you. What do you mean by pouch a and pouch c? Never heard these terms yet

 

[Hazelemere]

Italian prune plums are perfect. Your recipe may give you slightly more acid than you like but you will get an intense flavour and can sweeten with corn sugar to balance the taste. Don't go light on pectic enzyme. 71B yeast will drop the malic acid in the plums so you may not have to sweeten the wine at all to balance it.

 

[DrGriz]

This sounds great! I would only ask, why use simple sugar to get to your starting SG? It will dilute your fruit. I would just use dry sugar and stir it in. I understand it might be work to stir it in.

 

[GreatNorthernLlama]

@barry. Thank you! This calculator looks like it recommends two rounds of 8.8g ferm 0 per addition. Sounds about right to me so unless that's glaringly bad to anyone that's what I'll go with.

 

[GreatNorthernLlama]

This sounds great! I would only ask, why use simple sugar to get to your starting SG? It will dilute your fruit. I would just use dry sugar and stir it in. I understand it might be work to stir it in.

I'm using cane sugar. Will just mix with warm water to make my own syrup to mix into my must better. That's all

 

[DrGriz]

I'm using cane sugar. Will just mix with warm water to make my own syrup to mix into my must better. That's all

OK. Guess you will go with successive approximations anyway. So will you start with a smaller water volume than your target?
It sounds like a wine that will be delicious. Will certainly look forward to hearing about your results!

edit: never mind, I see you have accounted for that!

 

[GreatNorthernLlama]

OK. Guess you will go with successive approximations anyway. So will you start with a smaller water volume than your target?
It sounds like a wine that will be delicious. Will certainly look forward to hearing about your results!

Ya exactly. It will be alot of back and forth adding my made syrup and water to hit that target SG. My calculator is just a ballpark to know what I'm trying to shoot for

 

[Raptor99]

Using the calculator it just shows a crazy high sg if I drop my water value down much more but I suppose that just corresponds with a drop in sugar as well. As I said, I'll focus on slowly adding both simple syrup and water to my preset amount of plums to get a target SG.

My normal procedure is to
1. Estimate the amount of sugar I will need, then add half that amount with fruit + pectic enzyme + Kmeta.
2. After 12-24 hours to let the pectic enzyme work and Kmeta, I measure the SG and then add more sugar to reach my target SG. I also check the pH at this time to see if it needs adjusting.
3. Then I am ready to pitch the yeast.

The amount of sugar in fruit varies a lot depending on exact variety, soil, weather, and degree of ripeness when picked. So no calculator can tell you exactly how much sugar to add. The best way to determine how much sugar to add is to measure the SG.

I use simple syrup for backsweetening, but for the primary I dissolve the extra sugar in a quart of how water, let it cool, then add it to the must. Since I know how much water I am going to add with the sugar, I take that into consideration when calculating how much sugar to add with it.

 

[GreatNorthernLlama]

My normal procedure is to
1. Estimate the amount of sugar I will need, then add half that amount with fruit + pectic enzyme + Kmeta.
2. After 12-24 hours to let the pectic enzyme work and Kmeta, I measure the SG and then add more sugar to reach my target SG. I also check the pH at this time to see if it needs adjusting.
3. Then I am ready to pitch the yeast.

The amount of sugar in fruit varies a lot depending on exact variety, soil, weather, and degree of ripeness when picked. So no calculator can tell you exactly how much sugar to add. The best way to determine how much sugar to add is to measure the SG.

I use simple syrup for backsweetening, but for the primary I dissolve the extra sugar in a quart of how water, let it cool, then add it to the must. Since I know how much water I am going to add with the sugar, I take that into consideration when calculating how much sugar to add with it.

That's a great point about fruit sugars. I'll make my must short of sugar and total volume as you said and let the pectic enzyme go to to town and start taking measurements from there. I wouldn't of thought of this