Post-fermantation ruins...What are they?

[wineview]

Unbottle into the primary fermenter, the PPP bucket. It's easier to pour the bottles in and far easier to stir in the K-meta.

Then rack into a carboy, and top up to within 3" of the stopper with red wine. Any good tasting dry red will work.

Now comes the Bat of Patience! I warned you!!!

View attachment 107630



Seriously, let the wine set for 3 months. If you see a reoccurrence of anything growing in the neck of the carboy, use a damp paper towel to remove it as best you can. Some will recommend gently pouring 1 oz vodka in to help kill an infection if one reappears.

You will probably have sediment drop -- this is fine lees (yeast hulls) and is harmless.

At this point you can probably bottle -- rack off the sediment and add 1/4 tsp K-meta, stirring well.

However, I recommend you wait at least another 3 months to bottle. For Syrah, a common recommendation on this forum is to bottle after it's at least 9 months old. Wine undergoes a lot of chemical changes during the first 4 to 12 months, and having it go through those changes as a single entity produces consistent bottles. A heavier red such as Syrah needs more time to meld than does a much lighter wine such as Sauvignon Blanc.

Every time you touch the wine, taste it and record your impressions. Put the notes away and don't look at them. At bottling, reserve 2 bottles, to open at 6 and 12 months of age. Again record notes. After opening the 12 month bottle, read your notes first to last. This will teach you a lot about how wine ages.

I’ve made a habit of putting two bottles of every batch aside and forgetting about them In five years I’ll open one and see if that much time in the bottle improved it.

 

[mainshipfred]

I’ve made a habit of putting two bottles of every batch aside and forgetting about them In five years I’ll open one and see if that much time in the bottle improved it.

Heck, I can't remember what a wine tasted like 5 weeks ago let alone 5 years.

 

[wineview]

Heck, I can't remember what a wine tasted like 5 weeks ago let alone 5 years.

Not necessarily comparing the two. Just want to see if I’ll be wowed.

 

[winemaker81]

Jim (@Jim Welch) offers a good solution. I'd recommend that except the wine was bottled too young, and it's likely to drop sediment in the bottle.

To add K-meta to gallon/4 liter jugs, I put 5 to 6 Tbsp water in a sanitized glass, add 1/4 tsp K-meta, and stir to blend. I add 1 Tbsp of that mixture to each jug. For your needs, double the K-meta to 1/2 tsp, and put 1/5 of a Tbsp in each bottle. I suggest using an on-line calculator to translate tablespoons to ml, and use a medical type syringe (for medicine, not the needle type).

I concur with Paul (@sour_grapes), K-meta doesn't affect commercial yeast at the strength we use. However, you used indigenous yeast, which is one of thousands of strains of yeast. Personally, I use commercial yeast rather than praying for a good strain to live on the skins of my grapes.

Fred (@mainshipfred) may be correct that the wine is not fixable. I'd give it a try, but realize it may not work out as hoped. This is another reason to unbottle the wine -- you have to pull the corks to treat the wine, regardless of method. If you put it in a carboy and it's not fixable, you haven't gone through the time and expense of a second corking for nothing.

Note that everyone who responded is an experienced winemaker whose advice is solid -- everything offered is spot on.

In general, on which stage do you add PMS to your wine? I mean, i understand that the pms kills all living forms including yeasts in the wine, which means when i add pms fermentation will be stopped, but the thing is I saw the micoderma after the fermantation ended...Sounds like I have no option other than ending the fermentation by adding pms, or if i do not want to stop it manually and if there is any problem during the fermantation like sealing issue I will definetly face the micoderma again. So it eems like I have to find a solution to this oxygen, next time I will try to use carboy or fill the bucket with wine at higher level. Agree with this?

The problem is not if the fermenter sealed -- it's that you sealed air instead of CO2 inside the fermenter.

The process you used makes no sense, as Fred pointed out. You will be best served by changing your process:

Choice 1: Ferment the wine until the SG is below 1.000. Press the grapes and put the wine in carboys. You can leave extra headspace for a couple of weeks as the wine completes fermentation and starts degassing, but within 2 weeks of pressing, rack off the sediment and top all containers within 3" of the stopper. Add K-meta at each racking. Add K-meta every 3 months during bulk aging.

Choice 2: Ferment the wine until the SG is between 1.020 and 1.010, give it a final punch down, and seal the fermenter under airlock. On Day 14 (from the start), unseal the fermenter and press. From there it's like Choice 1. This is a short EM (Extended Maceration). While some folks do EM a lot longer, I don't recommend it for beginners.

There are numerous processes that can be used, but the above are good for beginners.

Regardless how this wine fares, I suggest you buy a kit or two and use them for practice. Finer Wine Kits (sold by Label Peelers), Winexpert, and RJ Spagnols all make good kits.

 

[Raptor99]

I will add two comments to the excellent advice already given above. These are for future reference.

1. Clarification: If you not doing MLF (common with grape wines), then there is only one fermentation. Transferring the wine into another container does not make it a second fermentation. The yeast don't know or care if they are in a different container.

2. Your fermentation buckets are good for the initial fermentation, usually 5-7 days, until the SG is below 1.010. At that point you need to rack into a carboy with a narrow neck. Even with an airlock, the amount of air in the space at the top of the bucket is way too much, and will provide lots of oxygen for acetic acid bacteria, which is what produces mycoderma.

 

[mainshipfred]

@midilli please don't get discouraged, everyone is just trying to help. This is a great hobby and I would doubt there is anyone ( unless they are lying) no matter what their experience is hasn't had a problem with a wine. I personally dumped 30 liters of PV recently and have to admit it wasn't the first time. Just wait until you break your first carboy.

 

[Rice_Guy]

on which stage do you add PMS to your wine? I mean, i understand that the potassium metabisulphite kills all living forms including yeasts in the wine, which means when i add pms fermentation will be stopped,

* I add K meta every time I open a carboy. My target is to add 50 ppm free sulphite. Basically I add 0.2 gm per four liter jar (gallon). If the level is 100 ppm free SO2. most people will taste an off flavor. Some countries have regulations which limit total addition of SO2. to 250ppm.
* free SO2. will not kill all microorganisms. It reacts with oxygen and organic compounds. Yeast produce 5 to 10 ppm as a defense
* I try to keep my head space at 200 ml total

 

[midilli]

No, this is not true. K-meta does NOT kill wine yeasts. Wine yeasts have evolved and/or been selected to tolerate levels of sulfite that are sufficient to kill most bacteria.

Thank you for the clarification, now it makes sense =)

 

[midilli]

@midilli please don't get discouraged, everyone is just trying to help. This is a great hobby and I would doubt there is anyone ( unless they are lying) no matter what their experience is hasn't had a problem with a wine. I personally dumped 30 liters of PV recently and have to admit it wasn't the first time. Just wait until you break your first carboy.

No, not at all...All answers are precious for me =) as they reflect others' experience. I really love this hobby and i won't give up finding the best taste
I just try not to miss any details in the answers, taking some notes, so please accept my apology for the delay in reply =)

 

[midilli]

Third fermentation is a term I have never heard of.

Now i learned that i have used a wrong term =) meant to describe that i continue "2nd fermentation" after racking the wine first time

Sulfites cannot be used at this time due to the bacteria's sensitivity to sulfites.

So, if you do not add pms during the 2nd fermentation or the 1st, do you add it just before bottling?

 

[midilli]

I’m curious to know what the wine tasted like when you bottled? I typically leave my wine in a glass carboy for 12 months racking three times before bottling.

As i do not use any preservative additive, i was not thinking to wait that much long =)

 

[mainshipfred]

Now i learned that i have used a wrong term =) meant to describe that i continue "2nd fermentation" after racking the wine first time


So, if you do not add pms during the 2nd fermentation or the 1st, do you add it just before bottling?

K-meta is added after MLF is complete, it just requires the carboys to be topped up to the fullest. I only leave 1/2", if that, in the neck of the carboy.

 

[midilli]

1. Clarification: If you not doing MLF (common with grape wines), then there is only one fermentation. Transferring the wine into another container does not make it a second fermentation. The yeast don't know or care if they are in a different container.

Some call maceration as the 1st fermentation and they call the process with the airlock as the 2nd fermentation. Not true?
With my limited knowledge, i was thinking that MLF occurs naturally during "2nd fermentation" unless i add PMS to stop it...Not true?

2. Your fermentation buckets are good for the initial fermentation, usually 5-7 days, until the SG is below 1.010. At that point you need to rack into a carboy with a narrow neck. Even with an airlock, the amount of air in the space at the top of the bucket is way too much, and will provide lots of oxygen for acetic acid bacteria, which is what produces mycoderma.

Well, i never thought that the space at the top would be the reason; suspecting that the bucket had a sealing issue.
I now understand that i should use carboy instead of bucket...But i can't help asking: What is this bucket made for? I mean, if you would use this bucket for 2nd fermentation with airlock, would you fill it up to the lid to minimize the space?

 

[midilli]

K-meta is added after MLF is complete, it just requires the carboys to be topped up to the fullest. I only leave 1/2", if that, in the neck of the carboy.

If so, i assume you fill the carboy up to the level pointed with the red arrow...?

 

[winemaker81]

So, if you do not add pms during the 2nd fermentation or the 1st, do you add it just before bottling?

The accepted abbreviation for potassium metabisulphite ion the forum is "K-meta". If you write "pms" folks are not going to understand.

Additions of K-meta depend upon the situation. If trying for MLF (MaloLactic Fermentation, which is commonly referred to as "2nd fermentation"), the bacteria involved is very sensitive to K-meta, so folks don't add K-meta until after they have verified that MLF is completed (this is done with chromatography).

If not inoculating with MLB (MaloLactic Bacteria), it's common to add 1/4 tsp K-meta per 19-23 liters at each racking post-fermentation, and at bottling time.

As i do not use any preservative additive, i was not thinking to wait that much long =)

Don't think of K-meta in the typical usage of the term "preservative". K-meta does 3 important things:

• Anti-oxidant. K-meta binds with O2, rendering it harmless. Unless you have a VERY high-tech setup, there's no way to keep O2 completely out of wine, but K-meta handles it.
• Anti-microbial. K-meta kills or stunts a wide variety of microbial life, preventing unwanted organisms from thriving in wine.
• Anti-contaminant. Similarly to what it does with O2, K-meta binds with many other "contaminants" (unwanted substances), rendering them harmless.

Some call maceration as the 1st fermentation and they call the process with the airlock as the 2nd fermentation. Not true?

Untrue. A lot of books talk about first and second fermentation. This is incorrect usage. There is only 1 yeast fermentation. If it happens in an open bucket or if it happens in a carboy, or a combination of the two, there is just one fermentation.

Think of it as "before" and "after". Before fermentation completes or after fermentation completes. Before pressing/racking to a secondary container or after pressing/racking to a secondary container.

You'd think the professionals (people that write books) would get it right? My American History textbook said Nathan Hale (American Revolutionary War figure) died in 1776 and was born in 1783. My teacher pointed out that just 'cuz it's written in a book doesn't mean it's correct.

What is this bucket made for?

Yeast needs O2 during reproduction. Fermentation is commonly done in an open container -- buckets to you-n-me, larger containers to home winemakers who make on a larger scale, and MUCH larger containers for professionals.

Once fermentation is complete, O2 changes from friend to the yeast to enemy of the wine. Since the yeast is not absorbing it, O2 oxidizes wine. Post-fermentation you want your wine to have minimal headspace. Buckets are bad because of the very broad surface area.

 

[midilli]

Choice 1: Ferment the wine until the SG is below 1.000. Press the grapes and put the wine in carboys. You can leave extra headspace for a couple of weeks as the wine completes fermentation and starts degassing, but within 2 weeks of pressing, rack off the sediment and top all containers within 3" of the stopper. Add K-meta at each racking. Add K-meta every 3 months during bulk aging.

I understand that i should rack off the sediment 2 weeks after the pressing...So if degassing still continues after 2 weeks, should i still proceed to racking or wait till degassing ends?

Choice 2: Ferment the wine until the SG is between 1.020 and 1.010, give it a final punch down, and seal the fermenter under airlock. On Day 14 (from the start), unseal the fermenter and press. From there it's like Choice 1. This is a short EM (Extended Maceration). While some folks do EM a lot longer, I don't recommend it for beginners.

In this option, how much space should i leave at the top of the bucket while the grapes are still in the bucket?

 

[winemaker81]

I understand that i should rack off the sediment 2 weeks after the pressing...So if degassing still continues after 2 weeks, should i still proceed to racking or wait till degassing ends?

Degassing of wine can take weeks or it can take months, depending on the wine. Don't worry about it at this point.

Rack the wine off the sediment after 2 weeks -- the act of racking will expel a lot of CO2. Then bulk age 3 months. It's likely that degassing will complete in this time.

In this option, how much space should i leave at the top of the bucket while the grapes are still in the bucket?

If you seal the bucket while fermentation is active, the wine is continuously emitting CO2. It will displace any air in the bucket within a few days, so headspace is not a problem.

In your situation, you opened the container after the wine was no longer continuously emitting CO2, so air containing O2 was in the headspace.

 

[midilli]

The accepted abbreviation for potassium metabisulphite ion the forum is "K-meta". If you write "pms" folks are not going to understand.

I have made a little search for K-meta over our market through the internet, all i 've found is a product called as "PMS for wine stabilization" which is produced by BASF. Hoping it is similar with the one you use - K-meta.

 

[midilli]

In your situation, you opened the container after the wine was no longer continuously emitting CO2, so air containing O2 was in the headspace.

Now everything has become clearer =)

 

[winemaker81]

Now everything has become clearer =)

If you haven't already, read through the post I mentioned in my first reply.

I need to review my post, and may expand some descriptions as it may not be explicit enough.