Question about "oaking" or flavoring

[DrStrangeLove]

One more question in regards to "oaking" or adding things to flavor the wine. I have never done this in the past and I wanted to try it out but I'm wondering on the timing. Is this something that should be done right away with secondary/finishing fermentation or can it be added any time after?

I just finished first round of racking (about 4 weeks in now). Basically in clarification phase now. When would it be too late to try to do this?

And also, is this something people do to any kind of grape or are certain grape sorts more suited to it?

I am making Montepulciano this year.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Traditionally oaking would be done in a barrel as part of the storage process and I would say it just happened since stainless tanks didn’t exist, ,,, and folks began to think that was the normal flavor. ,,, If you step back in biblical times wine was kept in clay amphora and not oaked. At state fair a number of non grape wines have shown up which are oaked, so if you like oak use it.

To your time question, there is at least one oak extract product “Sintan” which you could add at bottling to your wine to test a few bottles with and a few without oak. If you wanted you could do your own extract in grain alcohol. Also cleaning up after contest this year (drinking blue ribbon samples) I was surprised to empty out a bottle with an oak cube in it/ oaking a single bottle is also done for training wine judges. ,,, there are a number of profiles vinters use as making a kit with oak chips and when doing aging give a second round with oak staves or spirals etc.

 

[DrStrangeLove]

Traditionally oaking would be done in a barrel as part of the storage process and I would say it just happened since stainless tanks didn’t exist, ,,, and folks began to think that was the normal flavor. ,,, If you step back in biblical times wine was kept in clay amphora and not oaked. At state fair a number of non grape wines have shown up which are oaked, so if you like oak use it.

To your time question, there is at least one oak extract product “Sintan” which you could add at bottling to your wine to test a few bottles with and a few without oak. If you wanted you could do your own extract in grain alcohol. Also cleaning up after contest this year (drinking blue ribbon samples) I was surprised to empty out a bottle with an oak cube in it/ oaking a single bottle is also done for training wine judges. ,,, there are a number of profiles vinters use as making a kit with oak chips and when doing aging give a second round with oak staves or spirals etc.

Wow-- ok so that answers that question as to the timing. Sounds like another dimension to things that is something that suits someone's tastes. I've only been making grape wine for 3 years now and have never added any "oaking" kits or flavors of the like. Was just curious if people do this often and when its done.

Now I'm curious as to the how the flavor is enhanced by it. I think store bought wines are probably not all "oaked" per se either. I have picked up different bottles of Malbec with flavors that range wildly. Maybe I'll try what you said when it comes times to bottle just to see how the flavor is affected.. That won't be for quite a while so there's time to do some homework on the appropriate procedures.

I'm making Montepulciano this year. Never made it before. Tried the store bought stuff recently and it was pretty damn good especially with some nice meat.

Thanks for replying @Rice_Guy

 

[cmason1957]

@DrStrangeLove I would guess that nearly all commercial red wines above a price point of about $4.50 / bottle have some oak added. Almost certainly at the higher end (above $25-30/bottle) the wine spent some time in an oak barrel, below that, probably just oak adjuncts (cubes, spirals, stave parts) were added to the aging tank. I strive to be light handed in my oaking, so you might be able to pick it out, but not really know if that hint of chocolate, spiciness, coffee came from oak or something else.

As a side note Montepulciano would love to have some French or Hungarian Oak added to it for some period of time. Particularly if this wine is from grapes or a juice bucket, during MLF is when I normally add some oak. If it is a kit, then during bulk aging time is a great time to oak. I have become a big fan of winestix's, they provide a lot of great grain tastes that other smaller types of oak can't have. (winestix are available from the manufacturer (Stix Alternatives or MoreWine - Winemaking Supplies to Make Your Own Wine at Home)

That's my $0.02, take it for what it's worth.

 

[DrStrangeLove]

@DrStrangeLove I would guess that nearly all commercial red wines above a price point of about $4.50 / bottle have some oak added. Almost certainly at the higher end (above $25-30/bottle) the wine spent some time in an oak barrel, below that, probably just oak adjuncts (cubes, spirals, stave parts) were added to the aging tank. I strive to be light handed in my oaking, so you might be able to pick it out, but not really know if that hint of chocolate, spiciness, coffee came from oak or something else.

As a side note Montepulciano would love to have some French or Hungarian Oak added to it for some period of time. Particularly if this wine is from grapes or a juice bucket, during MLF is when I normally add some oak. If it is a kit, then during bulk aging time is a great time to oak. I have become a big fan of winestix's, they provide a lot of great grain tastes that other smaller types of oak can't have. (winestix are available from the manufacturer (Stix Alternatives or MoreWine - Winemaking Supplies to Make Your Own Wine at Home)

That's my $0.02, take it for what it's worth.

Awesome.. thanks for the 2c! @cmason1957

Yeah I think I am going to do this with some of the wine. It is from grapes. When you say during MLF-- can you expand that acronym for me?

I think I mentioned I'm about 4 weeks in right now.. i just treated the wine with Redules to get rid of a hint of sulphur odors I noticed.. Will rack it again in a few days.

 

[JohnT]

IMHO, it is never too late to oak your wine, but this depends on the method used.

If you are looking to age on oak (oak chips, cubes, beans, or staves) I like to add the oak any time after the wine has clarified after fermentation. the amount of time to let the wine sit on the oak depends on the type of oak you use and you own tastes.

I have never used an extract when it comes to oak. My fear is that it might not compare to the real thing.

 

[Newine]

Awesome.. thanks for the 2c! @cmason1957

Yeah I think I am going to do this with some of the wine. It is from grapes. When you say during MLF-- can you expand that acronym for me?

I think I mentioned I'm about 4 weeks in right now.. i just treated the wine with Redules to get rid of a hint of sulphur odors I noticed.. Will rack it again in a few days.

MLF is malolactic fermentation. Changes harsh malic into mellower lactic acid. Can occur naturally but to be reliable and get it done right away you need a to inoculate.

As to oak. Yep anytime. I throw some chips in immediately during initial fermentation in reds. They get left behind when pressing odd the skins.

I like oak stixs as well for further oaking. I grow my own grapes so I have several carbons of red to p lay around with and as such use French and American oak from light toast to heavy toast as they will impart different "flavors or aromas"

 

[DrStrangeLove]

a quick segue: This is something new to me.. what do you include to inoculate, and when (eg. induce that change of malic to lactic)?

 

[Newine]

a quick segue: This is something new to me.. what do you include to inoculate, and when (eg. induce that change of malic to lactic)?

There are several bacteria you can purchase, kind of like yeast. You can get liquid or dry, over the years i have had better luck with the dry.

I'd say you'd be well served to find some in depth reading materials to help you get up to speed, a book or two can get you a long way faster.

Best of luck!

 

[Paulietivo]

If you added sulphites already then mlf might be out if the question but its ok. It will be a good wine. If you didn't add sulphites then try mlf.
For oak my preference is oak spirals.
You can choose the toast level and there is full extraction in 6 weeks. Basically add at your next racking and thats it. I like the heavy toast or medium plus.
American Oak Infusion Spirals - Medium Plus Toast Amazon.com

 

[AaronSC]

Among the commercial winemakers I know there is currently a big push not to use oak as a flavor, which was common in the 90's and early 2000's. The reason is, as many people have pointed out, it's not really traditional and, further, it really does flavor a wine in a way that interferes with and masks the actual character of the wine.

For cheap supermarket wines you will still find a lot wines flavored by oak chips and powder, and some "I'm big" wines from better wineries using a high proportion of new barrels, but in general it seems to be seen as more of a defect than a positive attribute in many circles, where a lighter touch and used or neutral barrels are used to provide the aging character of a barrel without the flavoring. Folks have found that in places like California were wines tends to be very soft the new oak never integrates, like it does in harsher climates like Bordeaux, where the oak helps smooth out high acid and tannin and then disappears into the wine over time.

That said, I would never advise doing something as a home wine maker just because it's what other folks do. If you like the taste and smell of new oak use it. If you're happy without it (I certainly am) then don't feel compelled to use it.

My two cents...
--Aaron

 

[Newine]

Among the commercial winemakers I know there is currently a big push not to use oak as a flavor, which was common in the 90's and early 2000's. The reason is, as many people have pointed out, it's not really traditional and, further, it really does flavor a wine in a way that interferes with and masks the actual character of the wine.

For cheap supermarket wines you will still find a lot wines flavored by oak chips and powder, and some "I'm big" wines from better wineries using a high proportion of new barrels, but in general it seems to be seen as more of a defect than a positive attribute in many circles, where a lighter touch and used or neutral barrels are used to provide the aging character of a barrel without the flavoring. Folks have found that in places like California were wines tends to be very soft the new oak never integrates, like it does in harsher climates like Bordeaux, where the oak helps smooth out high acid and tannin and then disappears into the wine over time.

That said, I would never advise doing something as a home wine maker just because it's what other folks do. If you like the taste and smell of new oak use it. If you're happy without it (I certainly am) then don't feel compelled to use it.

My two cents...
--Aaron

There are at least 72 things commercial wineries can add to wine. As not commercial wine makers we are not limited.

I would say you can go from any extreme between do nothing to doing a lot of things and either way make good wine. Reading and understanding what may do what, experimenting from minimalist adjustments to all sorts of tweaking may lead you to the winemaking you like and enjoy. I would strongly suggest getting a grasp on the science behind wine making will lead to better wine.

I would also add if MLF might improve your wine you can always wait even if you added sulphites. Over time they will decrease and if you pick the right bacteria you can make it happen. That said you have to possess the instruments and knowledge to measure the Sulphited or SO2 content.

Buy and read books.

If I had to suggest just one I would recommend Daniel Pambianchi's " Techniques in Home Winemaking".

There are more complicated reads and less complicated reads, but this book will get you very far in your adventures in winemaking.

 

[JohnT]

Barrels have been used to store wine for centuries. Although wine had been made of thousands of years, who is to say the wood aging is not traditional. I think that wineries opt out of barrel aging because the the expense of cooperage.

All tastes differ. Some folks do not like the added complexity of wood, but many more people do.

There is a lot more to wood aging than just wood flavor. Barrel aged wine tends to be much more robust and softer on the pallet (due to micro oxidation and evaporation). Wood aged wine also ages better due to the additional tannins that wood provides.

The flavors that wood can bring to the party are wide and varied. Again, depending to your own personal tastes, these flavors can elevate the wine tasting experience.

 

[MisterEd]

Oaking introduces to your wine tannin primarily. It is recommended to only oak a portion of your varietal and compare it to the unoaked wine. If you are using inert storage mediums for your reds then no micro-oxidation or tannin exchange is taking place.

To overcome these realities more frequent racking and oaking can achieve the qualities barrel stored wines benefit from. I prefer a noticeable tannin note to my reds. As chambourcin (one varietal I grow) is considered short on natural tannin composition I oak it fairly vigorously.

You can also oak many whites, including chardonnay or its french hybrid chardonel. I have even oaked vidal.

In the end you have to experiment with different tannin levels and this is achieved by longer or shorter post-secondary oak soaks. And varying the quantity. 3-6 grams oaking per liter of vino is a fairly standard range. Presque Isle offers a heavy French roast I rely upon.

But side by side taste comparisons are your best approach to deciding if oak additions are appealing to you personally, for which specific varietals, and at what levels of concentration.

 

[DrStrangeLove]

I picked up bags of light toast and heavy toast oak-- I'm going to try them out. With chips, what is the proper process and time frame they should soak in the wine? Do you just drop the appropriate measure of chips into the carboy and let it sit there? Also, how long do you soak the chips in for typically?

Also, for those of you who have done this before.. do you just use the wood chips right out of the bag as-is or is there some need to 'clean' them somehow?

 

[wineview]

Ok I’m going out on a limb to make myself sound really dumb. The oak sticks seem to have a pretty wide price range even the lower end not so cheap. Are these sticks used once and discarded? Is there something special about the product? Why not go to Lowe’s and pick up an oak board and splinter off a few pieces? Ok I’m done exposing myself for now.

 

[Sailor323]

First off, the oak boards at Lowe's are Red Oak not White. Second they are not toasted. You CAN toast your own White Oak but it's more an art than a science. Here's an interesting article Making Your Own Toasted Oak For Wine - Wine Making and Beer Brewing Blog - Adventures in Homebrewing

 

[wineview]

First off, the oak boards at Lowe's are Red Oak not White. Second they are not toasted. You CAN toast your own White Oak but it's more an art than a science. Here's an interesting article Making Your Own Toasted Oak For Wine - Wine Making and Beer Brewing Blog - Adventures in Homebrewing

Thanks. And one last question about usage. If you buy the spirals are they a one use product?

 

[AaronSC]

Thanks. And one last question about usage. If you buy the spirals are they a one use product?

I think they are like a tea bag -it depends on how long you soaked them the first time and how much flavoring got sucked out of them. You get less the second use. The risk is that now they are soaked with wine so you will either need to move them directly into another batch or find a way of sanitizing them for storage.

 

[BABRU]

Maybe a silly question but…
How about using oak chips packaged for use in a smoker oven? Maybe toast them a bit with the flame from a propane torch.