Question about sediment

[tacomaguy20]

I had purchased a Merlot juice bucket and I let it ferment in the primary for about a week before racking and then 3 weeks in the secondary. I added Kmeta and I racked into a carboy hoping to let it ferment for another 5 months or so. Well more sediment is dropping out of it and it's not a lot but enough that I'm not sure I would want to leave it sit on the sediment so long. What does everyone suggest? Should I wait a month or so and rack again? I'm getting another juice bucket in about a week and I would like to know if maybe I racked too soon originally?

 

[NorCal]

A few suggestions:
1. Get a hydrometer, $14 and you will know when fermentation has been completed. It is the #1 tool a winemaker must have.
2. Fermentation at room temperature will normally finish in 7-14 days, so it would be abnormal for a must to ferment for 5 months.
3. Sediment will fall out of a red wine for a while. It is best to age your reds for 11-18 months, which should eliminate or minimize any fallout in the bottle.
4. Look up "gross lees" vs. "fine lees". You should be concerned and want to rack off the gross less and have less to no concern on the fine lees.

 

[salcoco]

agree with using a hydrometer when fermentation is complete or sg=1.000 rack once. wait three days rack again off of gross lees. add k-meta and finings. rack again in three weeks off of fine lees begin aging process rack every three months if sediment exists. add k-meta.

 

[tacomaguy20]

agree with using a hydrometer when fermentation is complete or sg=1.000 rack once. wait three days rack again off of gross lees. add k-meta and finings. rack again in three weeks off of fine lees begin aging process rack every three months if sediment exists. add k-meta.

Sorry I probably should have given some more information. I do have a hydrometer and I first racked at about 1.004 or so. These juice buckets don't have any skins or full grapes, only juice. So isn't the fruit/skins considered to be the gross lees? I then racked again 3 weeks later (instead of 3 days as suggested) at .994 with Kmeta. I'm still getting sediment, (fine lees if I got my terminology right). So at this point, would you suggest racking every 3 months or since I skipped the second racking, should I wait less time? Do the fine lees make as much impact? I've read somewhere that 1/2" or so is bad, but I didn't know if there was a time frame for it to be sitting on fine lees of less than that.

 

[salcoco]

I would rack again three weeks after last rack then age every three months

 

[tacomaguy20]

I would rack again three weeks after last rack then age every three months

Should I rack every three months during aging or should it only be if I'm seeing sediment? I thought that many rackings would expose the wine to more oxygen and be detrimental?

 

[tacomaguy20]

A few suggestions:
1. Get a hydrometer, $14 and you will know when fermentation has been completed. It is the #1 tool a winemaker must have.
2. Fermentation at room temperature will normally finish in 7-14 days, so it would be abnormal for a must to ferment for 5 months.
3. Sediment will fall out of a red wine for a while. It is best to age your reds for 11-18 months, which should eliminate or minimize any fallout in the bottle.
4. Look up "gross lees" vs. "fine lees". You should be concerned and want to rack off the gross less and have less to no concern on the fine lees.

Sorry I do have a hydrometer, I should have included more information. Sorry about that. I was talking about aging my wine for 5 months (not fermenting) but it sounds like that's not long enough. I read that gross lees were fruit bits/skins and such and that fine lees were just the normal yeast falling out. Is that what you were referring to?

 

[NorCal]

Sorry I do have a hydrometer, I should have included more information. Sorry about that. I was talking about aging my wine for 5 months (not fermenting) but it sounds like that's not long enough. I read that gross lees were fruit bits/skins and such and that fine lees were just the normal yeast falling out. Is that what you were referring to?

I think you are on the right track then, just some terminology. The schedule outline by @salcoco is what I'd follow as a baseline. After you've completed 50 ferments and had to deal with H2S and off smells/taste, you can vary the baseline process depending on what the wine needs. Some wines will will lose 95% of it sediment right away, others won't be done in a year. You will learn what is a large amount of lees and what is just a dusting that is benign. I definitely started out in the heavy handed side of things, looking for every excuse to rack, but learned that I was handling the wine excessively. Sometimes the best thing you can do for your wine is just leave it alone.

Time does wonders for wine. Go buy a common $4 bottle of wine at the store (like Forestville Cabernet). Let it sit for two years and then open it, along side a current year bottle and you will see the difference time can make. I did this exact thing and the added time improved the wine substantially.

 

[salcoco]

if sediment rack other wise add k-meta every three months for powder form of K-meta use 1/4 tsp per 5 gallons

 

[Steve Wargo]

Sorry I do have a hydrometer, I should have included more information. Sorry about that. I was talking about aging my wine for 5 months (not fermenting) but it sounds like that's not long enough. I read that gross lees were fruit bits/skins and such and that fine lees were just the normal yeast falling out. Is that what you were referring to?

Since you bought a juice bucket of wine, you might be able to treat it like a Kit wine to some degree. I was told that juice buckets have the acids balanced and adjusted for potential ABV, and have been initially treated with Kmeta. So a kit wine instruction guide might help you with the process of winemaking.

I rack off the primary fermentation into the secondary fermenter carboy. After 7 to 10 days, much of the sediment has fallen to the bottom in the secondary fermenter. I then rack into a clean carboy and add Kmeta, that is if I'm not planning forced MLF for some reason (too tart and a higher Malic Acid reading). If you want to drink your wine early, add some kind of clearing agents according to instructions into the "clean carboy" then transfer your wine from the secondary fermenter into it. (works for me) You will be surprised how much more sediment is cleared out of the wine. in a few days after adding the clearing agent. After wine clears, rack again into another clean carboy and ready your wine for bottling, or additional aging. I myself usually wait until the wine clears naturally, on its own resting in a cold basement(cold-crash) over winter, then rack off sediment during that cold temp time. I age the wine in the carboys for one year to 18-months or more before bottling. Aging depends on the acidity and PH, tannins, and 12.5 % ABV or higher. I'm light-handed with Kmeta, and only use Kmeta when I rack the wine into a clean carboy. I have not covered degassing, I presume you know when to do it.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I would not assume that the acid of a juice has been balanced, Kmeta May be done.

Since you bought a juice bucket of wine, . . . . I was told that juice buckets have the acids balanced and adjusted for potential ABV, have been initially treated with Kmeta.

I have tested every varietal that comes through the vinters club juice buy for several years. My observation is that the acid is often low as if hot climate, sugar is good, reds have some SO2 but whites only a trace.
LAST MONTH

 

[heatherd]

@tacomaguy20 the gross lees happen with juice too - its the thick, heavy gunk that you leave behind when you rack from primary fermenter to a carboy. The fine lees are what you'll see when you're bulk-aging in a carboy, and they're what they sound like, smaller particles. When bulk-aging you'll want to add kmeta every three months, I do that instead of racking every three months and let time clear and degas my wine.
http://winemakersacademy.com/gross-vs-fine-lees/

 

[Steve Wargo]

I would not assume that the acid of a juice has been balanced, Kmeta May be done.

I have tested every varietal that comes through the vinters club juice buy for several years. My observation is that the acid is often low as if hot climate, sugar is good, reds have some SO2 but whites only a trace.
View attachment 67030 LAST MONTH

Interesting, hmm Yea, I was told, that by someone that receives a lot of 50-gallon drums and buckets and services our area. I never checked the PH. What PH readings were you getting with the Red Grape juice buckets your group received? What PH measuring device did you use? I've done ABV checks on the few juice buckets I received(hydrometer no calibration required), and that seems to fluctuate depending on the supplier and vintage year, maybe varietal, though not by much.

Do you think it's the juice supplier (name should be on the bucket) that might make a difference? I'm curious. What company name is on the juice buckets? I'd like to discuss this information with our local juice supplier. Their family has been in the business 2-3 generations maybe more. They used to sell wine grapes off a train boxcars years ago, according to the pictures they have. They still sell grapes and sources them from Colavita out of California.

One juice supplier in my area gets their grapes and maybe juice from Colavita, the other supplier shows Luna Bella on the buckets?

Now that you mention it, I've read that some have had to do acid adjustments to kit wine. I talked to a large Canadian kit wine supplier and they said adjustments aren't necessary with kit wine. Maybe it depends on the winemaker's acid likes and dislikes? Every day I learn something new

 

[Paulietivo]

Kits are formulated and shouldn't need acid adjustments but you can tweak it.
Juice buckets are tricky and definitely vary by brand. Mosti fresco comes pre balanced but I'm pretty sure that others do not. I just picked up my Italian juice buckets 2 days ago and ph was between 3.7 -4.1!!!!! So yea I added some TA to get them around 3.5-3.6.
Chilean juice buckets are way closer to being balanced than Italian buckets and California is hit or miss. Some are and some aren't.

For your juice bucket, just rack when you think it's too much sediment. But sediment falling is a good thing because your wine is clearing. You can speed it up w a clarifier but you can also just be patient.

 

[Steve Wargo]

Kits are formulated and shouldn't need acid adjustments but you can tweak it.
Juice buckets are tricky and definitely vary by brand. Mosti fresco comes pre balanced but I'm pretty sure that others do not. I just picked up my Italian juice buckets 2 days ago and ph was between 3.7 -4.1!!!!! So yea I added some TA to get them around 3.5-3.6.
Chilean juice buckets are way closer to being balanced than Italian buckets and California is hit or miss. Some are and some aren't.

For your juice bucket, just rack when you think it's too much sediment. But sediment falling is a good thing because your wine is clearing. You can speed it up w a clarifier but you can also just be patient.

Good info on the differences in TA Acid / PH of different supplier juice buckets. I purchased a PH meter this year. I calibrate it about once a week maybe more. The 1st week I owned it, I almost sent it back. The readings weren't consistent at all. Then after about a week of using it several times a day, it worked correctly, consistent reading from same-same test. So far my palate drives much of my winemaking plans, along with copious note-taking from my previous fermentations.

 

[Paulietivo]

Good info on the differences in TA Acid / PH of different supplier juice buckets. I purchased a PH meter this year. I calibrate it about once a week maybe more. The 1st week I owned it, I almost sent it back. The readings weren't consistent at all. Then after about a week of using it several times a day, it worked correctly, consistent reading from same-same test. So far my palate drives much of my winemaking plans, along with copious note-taking from my previous fermentations.

Wow that ph meter would drive me nutz! I'm happy it started working.
You hit the nail on the head, its all about the taste! Use your own palate and what your taste enjoys. I used to be obsessed with clarity of my wine so I had crystal clear wine which lacked body and wasn't balanced. Now its all about the taste, balance the acidity and clarity usually comes with time. I'd rather have a cloudy wine that tastes amazing then a clear wine that doesn't. Knowing this and getting the wine adjusted before pitching the yeast is the best step. Salute!

 

[tacomaguy20]

I would not assume that the acid of a juice has been balanced, Kmeta May be done.

I have tested every varietal that comes through the vinters club juice buy for several years. My observation is that the acid is often low as if hot climate, sugar is good, reds have some SO2 but whites only a trace.
View attachment 67030 LAST MONTH

I have been getting Regina wine buckets and they say that they have 100 SO2 ppm on the side of the bucket. I'm guessing they add it but I haven't tested it. The cab I bought had a ph of about 3.5 or so and the merlot was about 3.8 to 4. Using ph test strips so not sure how accurate they are. I didn't adjust for Ph earlier for the merlot but sounds like it might need some acid. Can I add some acid now and be fine?

 

[sour_grapes]

Are you saying you determined your pH using test strips? If so, I would NOT adjust anything based solely on that data. The chances of your improving your wine vs. making it worse are tiny.

If you have a reliable pH reading, we can think about advising you on whether to adjust. I sit in the "let it ride" camp, myself.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Some examples of ranges
fall 2020. . Cal Reds (14 varieties) pH 3.39 to 3.64: TA 0.28 to 0.36%: spGrav 1.082 to 1.094
fall2019. . .Cal red (13 varieties) pH 3.23 to 3.48: TA 0.44 to 0.54%: SpGrav 1.086 to 1.093: SO2, was in the 20s
2020 Chile. . . Reds (12 varieties) pH 3.11 to 3.86: TA 0.32 to 0.50%: SpGrav 1.084 to 1.092: SO2, 3 to 17 ppm
fall 2019. . . Cal white (9 varieties) pH 3.20 to 3.35: TA 0.36 to 0.38%: SpGrav 1.093 to 1.097: SO2, 4 to 7 ppm
fall 2019 . . . Italy reds (9 varieties) pH 3.20 to 3.23: TA 0.55 to 0.57%: SpGrav 1.090 to 1.092: SO2 16 to17 ppm
* as a club we collect feedback from purchasers and may have two to four results on a variety: the purpose is to act as check samples so we compare our analytical technique and equipment
* two handy buckets “California Classic” and “Uva de Chile”
* @Steve Wargo if you were reading pH as it is fermenting YES it will wander! Yeast produce CO2 which drops the pH below the must level, I would expect about 0.2 units, however if you do country wines without a lot of buffering it will be more. A dirty probe can give slow readings but you say new. A thinner glass bulb gives faster readings, a sensitive probe should be able to follow the loss of CO2 as you stir the sample.
As @sour grapes says once the fermentation is running, you can’t accurately adjust acids., ,,,,, the system is alive and moving