Question about wine taste during the winemaking process.

[dcf1999]

Hello all!

Making my second wine kit from RJS Orchard Breezn. This one is the pomegranate wild berry. After reading other threads on this forum, I decided to do a tweak and add half the F-pack at fermentation and the other half after I rack it for the clearing step. Reason being is I wanted to bump the alcohol content a little while making the wine a little dryer (wife likes dryer wine).

During the fermentation process, while checking the S.G., we also have a little sample.... and were liking the taste up until the last day or two. I chalked it up to it being the way it is during the fermentation process, and will probably get better after we add the second half of the F-Pack.

I racked the wine to the glass carboy, adding all the ingredients in the kit per instructions (including the rest of the F-pack). We had a taste after we did all that and it was ok. I wasn't impressed but she liked it. The next day, we had a taste again, and neither of us were impressed. It's like the flavor isn't there and it had a weird aftertaste. Again, this was right after everything was mixed and the day after. It almost doesn't have the pomegranate taste is too weak but is also had a strong alcohol or something taste. (It's hard to describe)

Am I just getting to anxious too quickly? Will the taste improve as the clearing process?

I was thinking, at the time I'm ready to bottle, if the taste isn't still there, I can maybe add some pomegranate juice and maybe some simple sugar if she wants it a little sweeter?

 

[winemaker81]

IMO you are judging too quickly. Wine changes very frequently during the first few months. Winemaking is a patience game -- you'll see the "P" word invoked as frequently as "bulk aging".

At this time the wine contains a LOT of CO2, which provides off flavors. Let the wine clear, rack it, then bulk age 3 months without touching it. THEN taste if. If you think the wine need extra flavor, by all means add a bit of juice.

One thing to consider is that adding juices reduces the ABV, so adding a lot of juice will have an effect.

 

[Ohio Bob]

Totally agree.

I will also add that it is a good idea to taste at rackings and take notes. Soon you will recognize the slightly sharp, fizzy taste that is CO2. That’s an indicator the wine needs time.

If you have no option but to add juice I would use the Pearson Square to add a prescribed amount of Everclear, vodka, or neutral spirit. Let’s say your wine is 12%. You can make a pint, or whatever you estimate you need, of juice with the calculated amount of spirit, so that the mix is also 12%. Anything leftover just put in a glass and enjoy.

 

[ChuckD]

Stir the must… take a sip. Do an SG reading… take a sip. Rack it… take a sip. It won’t taste the same as aged wine but you will learn what is normal and what you might expect to tast in the finished wine.

There is no reason to not use all your senses when making wine.

 

[winemaker81]

If you have no option but to add juice I would use the Pearson Square to add a prescribed amount of Everclear, vodka, or neutral spirit. Let’s say your wine is 12%. You can make a pint, or whatever you estimate you need, of juice with the calculated amount of spirit, so that the mix is also 12%. Anything leftover just put in a glass and enjoy.

Good point.

FYI -- for 23 liters of wine, ~360 ml EverClear 151 proof will bump the ABV 1%. This varies a bit, depending on the starting ABV, but 360 ml is a good approximation.

 

[BigDaveK]

Am I just getting to anxious too quickly? Will the taste improve as the clearing process?

I experienced the amazing transformation that happens over time and was shocked.
I made a garlic scape wine that, transferring out of primary, I described as the most vile horrible thing I'd ever tasted. I considered dumping, it was that bad, but let it go out of curiosity. Going from secondary to bulk it was no longer horrible. A taste after a few months in bulk and it was actually good. I'll be bottling in a month or two.
Wine is incredibly complex and most of the changes will be done in 6-ish months. Tasting is always a good idea but it's way too early to start judging.

Stir the must… take a sip. Do an SG reading… take a sip. Rack it… take a sip.

One of the main reasons we oversize batches a little. Am I right?

 

[ChuckD]

One of the main reasons we oversize batches a little. Am I right?

You are correct sir!

 

[winemaker81]

One of the main reasons we oversize batches a little. Am I right?

Quality control is a critical part of the process!

Note that the amount of wine it takes to top up a barrel depends directly upon the number of people helping me pour.

 

[dcf1999]

Totally agree.

I will also add that it is a good idea to taste at rackings and take notes. Soon you will recognize the slightly sharp, fizzy taste that is CO2. That’s an indicator the wine needs time.

If you have no option but to add juice I would use the Pearson Square to add a prescribed amount of Everclear, vodka, or neutral spirit. Let’s say your wine is 12%. You can make a pint, or whatever you estimate you need, of juice with the calculated amount of spirit, so that the mix is also 12%. Anything leftover just put in a glass and enjoy.

huh... that's a good idea. I would have never thought to mix juice with everclear to the percent of the wine. Thanks for the tip. I will use this if I need to.

 

[dcf1999]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies! Ok so it seems like everyone is recommending some bulk aging? The kit just says to ferment for 2 weeks (making sure S.G. is .998 or lower before next step). Then transferring to a glass carboy for another 2 weeks to clear. After that, bottle. So, instead of bottling, transfer to another carboy and let sit for 2 or 3 months?

Also, Is there a difference it bulk aging the wine in a carboy for 3 months vs bottling wine and letting the bottles age for 3 months? Like does the fact that the wine is "together" in one vessel change the flavor overall vs if that wine is separated into bottles?

Lastly, If I rack again into a glass carboy to balk age, should I crush up some campden tablets to put into it for that time or leave it and maybe add before bottling? If so, how many? Batch is 6 gallons.

Thanks for everyone's help!

 

[winemaker81]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies! Ok so it seems like everyone is recommending some bulk aging? The kit just says to ferment for 2 weeks (making sure S.G. is .998 or lower before next step). Then transferring to a glass carboy for another 2 weeks to clear. After that, bottle. So, instead of bottling, transfer to another carboy and let sit for 2 or 3 months?

The short answer is "yes", bulk age at least 3 months. You're making a "fun wine" kit, which is light bodied, so I would not bulk age longer.

A huge part of kit wine marketing is exactly that -- marketing. If a vendor says the wine will be drinkable in 1 to 2 years, how many people will pass on it? We have sooo many newcomers whose response is, "WHAT???" when we suggest bulk aging for 3 to 12 months.

Note that kit instructions are correct. You can certainly make a wine and bottle in 4 weeks, and produce a good result. However, you are unlikely to produce a better-than-good result, so accepting the advice of the dozens of experienced winemakers on this forum is in your best interest.

Something I point out from time to time is that this forum is far better than any blog or video. Blogs and videos present one opinion, which is all too often less than optimal. On this forum you have dozens of experienced winemakers who have been making wine for years and even decades, and we cross-check and support each other.

Also, Is there a difference it bulk aging the wine in a carboy for 3 months vs bottling wine and letting the bottles age for 3 months? Like does the fact that the wine is "together" in one vessel change the flavor overall vs if that wine is separated into bottles?

Absolutely. I didn't believe it, up until a few years ago when I bottled a kit at the 4 week mark. I had tremendous bottle variation, from very good to kit wine taste (off taste associated with some red wine kits). Let the wine age as a single unit, then bottle. It may not make a difference in a given batch, but you won't know for sure until you find out it does.

This is a key point in winemaking -- we do a lot of preventative maintenance, as once you find a problem, it's too late.

Lastly, If I rack again into a glass carboy to balk age, should I crush up some campden tablets to put into it for that time or leave it and maybe add before bottling? If so, how many? Batch is 6 gallons.

If you are bottling on kit schedule and using the finishing pack, no extra K-meta is required.

If you are NOT bottling on kit schedule, it's in your best interest to add extra K-meta. Post-fermentation, I add 1/4 tsp to 19-to-23 liters of wine at each racking and at bottling time. During bulk aging I add K-meta every 3 months (there is wiggle room on this).

For batches larger than 1 US gallon / 4 liters, buy an 8 oz bag of K-meta. It's cheaper than Campden and it's far less of a PITA than crushing tablets to powder.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Your observation about long flavor notes, ,, when tasting the first note is sweet > followed by a wave of acid > followed by tannins/ polyphenols. The end note could be bitter like grape tannin or astringent (roof of mouth feels rough) (pomegranate gives astringent, ,, like eating green banana peel). Sugar can balance out astringent flavor.

Time can fix tannin since they complex and fall out of solution.

 

[wineview]

I experienced the amazing transformation that happens over time and was shocked.
I made a garlic scape wine that, transferring out of primary, I described as the most vile horrible thing I'd ever tasted. I considered dumping, it was that bad, but let it go out of curiosity. Going from secondary to bulk it was no longer horrible. A taste after a few months in bulk and it was actually good. I'll be bottling in a month or two.
Wine is incredibly complex and most of the changes will be done in 6-ish months. Tasting is always a good idea but it's way too early to start judging.


One of the main reasons we oversize batches a little. Am I right?

I’m curious. What does garlic scape wine taste like? How many pounds of scapes? In fact, would you mind posting your recipe?

Thanks

 

[BigDaveK]

I’m curious. What does garlic scape wine taste like? How many pounds of scapes? In fact, would you mind posting your recipe?

Thanks

I'd be glad to!
First, this is funny - like many here I taste the ferment every chance I get. In my notes, three times during the first five days I wrote "OMG THIS TASTES AWFUL!!"

Garlic is one of those ingredients that has anti-fungal properties that could be bad for yeast. Off the top of my head, onions and ginger have the same property. They have to be cooked first. I didn't want to take a chance with the garlic scapes so I chopped them small and simmered for a few minutes. I don't boil - higher temps can affect some ingredients. So...

garlic scapes 1/2 pound, chopped and simmered, everything into bucket
raisins 8 oz chopped, added to simmering water and scapes
sugar 2+ lbs, SG to 1.100
Acid blend 2 tsp to pH 3.5
Nutrient 1 tsp
Pectic enzyme 1/2 tsp
tannin 1/2 tsp
EC1118 yeast
water to about 5 qts

My last tasting was in November and I'll be bottling soon. It had a garlic aroma and a delicious mild spicy flavor. No garlic taste! The alcohol wasn't noticeable but I felt it a few minutes after drinking. My notes also say "delicious, bottle dry".
Because of the garlic aroma and spiciness I wouldn't think of it as a sipping wine. With a meal, though, I think it will be fantastic.
Oh, my last note was "Make again!!" And I plan to, this year. I lucked out with the quantity of scapes - I think I'll stay close to a half pound.

Extra detail - I used scapes from Russian Red and Asian Tempest.

 

[FlamingoEmporium]

After 6-8 months here I have embraced the P word and 3 months is minimum for me now. I try to get to 6 months before I bottle, but my wine room is a closet. We don’t have a basement or any other place so sometimes I just have to bottle.

 

[joeswine]

Adding a quart of simple syrup gives you the bump you’re looking for .
Adding a fresh pomegranate to the primary is an excellent idea also.
When doing these style kits it’s important to stay the course .

 

[BigDaveK]

After 6-8 months here I have embraced the P word and 3 months is minimum for me now. I try to get to 6 months before I bottle, but my wine room is a closet. We don’t have a basement or any other place so sometimes I just have to bottle.

Hey, Buckaroo, isn't it about time to expand that closet!

 

[FlamingoEmporium]

Hey, Buckaroo, isn't it about time to expand that closet!

Wife has me redoing the kitchen. I’m already dreading handling carboys over the quartzite countertop. I’ve heard stories.

 

[wineview]

I'd be glad to!
First, this is funny - like many here I taste the ferment every chance I get. In my notes, three times during the first five days I wrote "OMG THIS TASTES AWFUL!!"

Garlic is one of those ingredients that has anti-fungal properties that could be bad for yeast. Off the top of my head, onions and ginger have the same property. They have to be cooked first. I didn't want to take a chance with the garlic scapes so I chopped them small and simmered for a few minutes. I don't boil - higher temps can affect some ingredients. So...

garlic scapes 1/2 pound, chopped and simmered, everything into bucket
raisins 8 oz chopped, added to simmering water and scapes
sugar 2+ lbs, SG to 1.100
Acid blend 2 tsp to pH 3.5
Nutrient 1 tsp
Pectic enzyme 1/2 tsp
tannin 1/2 tsp
EC1118 yeast
water to about 5 qts

My last tasting was in November and I'll be bottling soon. It had a garlic aroma and a delicious mild spicy flavor. No garlic taste! The alcohol wasn't noticeable but I felt it a few minutes after drinking. My notes also say "delicious, bottle dry".
Because of the garlic aroma and spiciness I wouldn't think of it as a sipping wine. With a meal, though, I think it will be fantastic.
Oh, my last note was "Make again!!" And I plan to, this year. I lucked out with the quantity of scapes - I think I'll stay close to a half pound.

Extra detail - I used scapes from Russian Red and Asian Tempest.

Interesting. Maybe I’ll put my scapes to use this coming July.

 

[winemaker81]

Wife has me redoing the kitchen. I’m already dreading handling carboys over the quartzite countertop. I’ve heard stories.

buy workout puzzle mats. Put 'em on the counter while working on yours wines. I have 'em on the floor in my cellar.