Questions Regarding training systems.

[Vacirca's Organics]

Hey everyone. My name is Chris. Been an organic farmer for the last 25 years, and over the last 6 years got into grape growing. Prior to this year, our grape vines were always just a grape vine growing on a fence, and let to grow free. 4 years ago I started studying the different training systems used for grape vines, and which species required which training systems. So, this year I purchased wine grape varieties for the first time, having only worked with concord grape vines in the past. I ordered a total of 13 vines, 1 from each of the species I wanted. A grafted Cabernet Sauvignon, a grafted gewurztraminer, a Marechal Froch, Frontanac, frontenac gris, frontenac Blanc, La Crosse, Fredonia, baco noir, mars, marquis, osceola muscat, and NY muscat, as well as the Concord, Niagara, Himrod, and reliance I had growing in previous years. The white niagara died last winter. Not sure how since It was a mild winter, but, it never came back this year which was disappointing. Loved that vine. But, in previous years we really never maintained it.
Now, here is the reason I am here. I built a number of training systems for these vines, and they have been growing for the last month. I have an 8' top wire, a 16 foot top wire, a 24' top wire, 2 18' top wires, 1 mid wire cordon, 1 4 arm kniffen, an 18' Vertical Shoot Position trellis with 5 sets of catch wires going up 7', and an 18' modified munson system. I built these based off the suggested "best training system to be used for the grape" coming from Double A Vineyards which is where the vines came from. The part that is still confusing to me is which of these training practices are most productive:
Allowing the vine to grow straight up and cutting it off 2 inches from the top wire on top wire systems, and the bottom wire on VSP and so on, and then having 2 "Arms" come out from where the cut is to become the cordons.
Or:
Allowing the vine to grow up and then follow the cable to become the cordons from the trunk, so basically allowing the trunk to also be the cordons.
I have seen both ways being done, including in the publications I have printed out, and in the videos I have watched. But, I do not know if there is any specific reasoning for the different styles of achieving the same result, or if there is a scientific reason behind it.
If anyone has this information, please let me know. I greatly appreciate any information you have. Thank you in advance.

 

[Rocktop]

You have a lot going in your vineyard.
I would first look at the growing habit of the particular vine. Usually trailing vines are trained on top wire as they do best hanging down.
‘VSP works well for vines with upright growth habits, but is somewhat falling out of favour as there is some more productive training techniques.
Also other training techniques are desirable for areas that don’t get a lot of sun, so you split the canopy to get more leaf surface area.
Winter low temperatures and potential kill is also a consideration for training heights and if you go cordon pruning or cane pruning.
All that said there is many different techniques because there are many types of vines, in many different climates.

The best series of videos I ever found were under the user name of Tom@viticultureino on YouTube. If you watch his whole series of grape vine videos and his deep dive into each of the training methods and their pros and cons I think you will have all your answers.

RT

 

[Vacirca's Organics]

You have a lot going in your vineyard.
I would first look at the growing habit of the particular vine. Usually trailing vines are trained on top wire as they do best hanging down.
‘VSP works well for vines with upright growth habits, but is somewhat falling out of favour as there is some more productive training techniques.
Also other training techniques are desirable for areas that don’t get a lot of sun, so you split the canopy to get more leaf surface area.
Winter low temperatures and potential kill is also a consideration for training heights and if you go cordon pruning or cane pruning.
All that said there is many different techniques because there are many types of vines, in many different climates.

The best series of videos I ever found were under the user name of Tom@viticultureino on YouTube. If you watch his whole series of grape vine videos and his deep dive into each of the training methods and their pros and cons I think you will have all your answers.

RT

I love that guy's videos. I have not watched them all in order but I've watched a bunch of them, especially the videos about the anatomy of a grape vine, and on the specific training systems suggested by Double A Vineyards where I got my wine grape vines, as they were my only resource before I joined this forum. He's very detailed.
Now, you said VSP was falling out of favour. What training systems have been adopted to replace it?
I was looking into whether I could top wire train the cabernet and the gewurztraminer, which are the only 2 I bought that specifically said vsp, and everything I read stated that vsp produced the most vigorous harvest for these species. Same with riesling and zinfandel which I want to get next year. Riesling being my mom's favorite wine, and zinfandel being one of mine. But if there are other training systems that are being adopted for these varieties, that are working better, then I am open to learn about them.
I chose a lot of varieties based on their ease of development, and my familiarity with the variety, as well as a few new ones. Like gewurztraminer. Never heard of that one before seeing it for sale in my zone. I tried to stay away from a lot of cane pruned varieties and tried to stick to cordon pruning varieties. I know I've got a few cane pruned varieties, namely the table grapes.
Luckily, in late November, after the final harvest, one of the grape Vineyards here in NY has offered to have me come and work hands on pruning the vines so I can get some hands on experience. But the only species they have that I have is the cabernet sauvingnon. They have riesling, merlot, pinot gri, and pinot noir as well. Those species I do not have. I'd like to one day, so I guess that would be future training. Lol.
But, I'm no where near a professional when it comes to understanding which varieties do best in what training systems. So far, I have studied the training systems that Double A said were best. Never really looked into the possibility of there being better options. Are there publications that can go into deeper depth on the different systems used for different varieties, and the benefits and cons of them? Preferably books or publications that I could read and print out so I can refer back to them?

 

[Rocktop]

You can train any vine to any system it just may not flourish. To be clear VSP is still the norm and probably by far the most used system in commercial vineyards. When I say it’s falling out of favour it is because in some climates they can get 10% more production from other methods like lyre etc. When farming 100’s of acres that production bump matters. Back yard vineyard, not so much.
Cab Sauv likes VSP.
train some as cane pruned and some as cordon, see what works well for you. You can always convert later especially at your scale.

RT

 

[Vacirca's Organics]

You can train any vine to any system it just may not flourish. To be clear VSP is still the norm and probably by far the most used system in commercial vineyards. When I say it’s falling out of favour it is because in some climates they can get 10% more production from other methods like lyre etc. When farming 100’s of acres that production bump matters. Back yard vineyard, not so much.
Cab Sauv likes VSP.
train some as cane pruned and some as cordon, see what works well for you. You can always convert later especially at your scale.

RT

Ok. Thank you. Will do.