Red Wine - Improved Color Extraction

[MalvinaScordaad]

One other thing not all Dry Ice is Food Grade. Make sure yours is.
Malvina

 

[altavino]

The main problem with non food grade materials is they contain plasticizers which aide in keeping the material flexible.
These compounds are not as stable as those used in food grade polymers . They can leech into your wine , and if you are lucky just give it bad flavors . It's the health effects I'd really worry about.

Pet soda pop 2 Litre bottles work well for ice bombs are food grade and unlikely to burst . Pet is also used to contain wine coolers , cider etc so Is stable with alcohol

otherwise look for food grade HDPE

 

[TJsBasement]

Just taste some water from a hose that is not made for drinking water, that extra flavor is something, is it bad ??? Wouldn't think it's good but who knows.

 

[altavino]

There is a new product called redstyle which is a combination enzyme and optired type product.

It is great for pulling colour out and if your fruit is unripe at all does wonders to reduce green vegital flavors
http://www.lallemandwine.us/products/enzyme_strains.php

Great combined with GRE yeast on cab Sauvignon or franc in a cool year like we are having

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Just taste some water from a hose that is not made for drinking water, that extra flavor is something, is it bad ??? Wouldn't think it's good but who knows.

You are right not good. You should use a food grade hose whenever drinking from it. It will be either white or green with a white stripe. You just have to read the label when you buy one. The marine stores always have them.

 

[TJsBasement]

I was just making a point anyone could simply test for themselves that non food grade plastics will leach stuff.

 

[altavino]

wouldn't you rather it was certified food grade by an acredited national body like the UL, CSA or CE ?

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

anyone could simply test for themselves that non food grade plastics will leach stuff.

You really can't depend on your senses to test for yourself. That is the scary part. But in the case of Black Trash Bags your nose can tell you without a problem.

Think you would want to put your grapes in these?.....http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM6381275701P and when they say safe for food prep areas they don't mean you put the food in them. What about the others?

 

[altavino]

One thing I should have mentioned is that you can add oak at the same time as your enzymes but a fermentation stage tannin product should be added at least 24 hour later , usually it's added at the end of lag so as not to interfere with the enzyme action.

To really get good colour I would use an enzyme like rapidase ex color , an SIY like optired and 2 g / Litre of medium toast French oak (or tannin product , I like oak for it's subtlety) in the primary.

The enzyme pulls the colour out of the skins, the inactivated yeast product stabilizes the colour during the ferment and the tannin from the oak or tannin product locks it in for the long term and reduces fading.

I like the rapidase ex colour enzyme because I can add it at crush and it isn't inhibited by any so2 added at crush as some enzymes are.

Make sure when you ferment you get a nice hot heat spike timed with the peak of fermentation, 24 Hours of a good hot ferment. This is essential for extraction.

Punch down 4 or 5 times a day this mechanical action further breaks down the skins ( you could even do a submerged cap if you have pump over capability)

I'd do these before considering cold soaks or extended macerations .

Delaying mlf and doing it in a barrel can also preserve colour , this delayed barrel mlf and colour preservation is often employed with Pinot noir where colour is a struggle to get

 

[altavino]

http://www.lallemandwine.com/IMG/pdf_WUP_2005_3_-_USA.pdf

Malvina
Here's a Lallmand article discussing delayed mlf preserving colour in light colored wines like Pinot noir and Sangiovese if it works with these colour challenged wines it should help others with less pigment problems too.

This inoculation timing diagram also highlights delaying mlf innoculatio to preserve color

http://www.lallemandwine.com/IMG/pdf_Fiche-8IntALP.qxd.pdf

 

[tolikovski]

To really get good colour I would use an enzyme like rapidase ex color , an SIY like optired and 2 g / Litre of medium toast French oak (or tannin product , I like oak for it's subtlety) in the primary.

The enzyme pulls the colour out of the skins, the inactivated yeast product stabilizes the colour during the ferment and the tannin from the oak or tannin product locks it in for the long term and reduces fading.

I like the rapidase ex colour enzyme because I can add it at crush and it isn't inhibited by any so2 added at crush as some enzymes are.

Make sure when you ferment you get a nice hot heat spike timed with the peak of fermentation, 24 Hours of a good hot ferment. This is essential for extraction.

Punch down 4 or 5 times a day this mechanical action further breaks down the skins ( you could even do a submerged cap if you have pump over capability)

I'd do these before considering cold soaks or extended macerations .

Delaying mlf and doing it in a barrel can also preserve colour , this delayed barrel mlf and colour preservation is often employed with Pinot noir where colour is a struggle to get

when you say 2g/L oak, you mean volume of must or finished wine?

 

[tolikovski]

This seems to be the latest conventional wisdom on a few things mentioned here. For Cold Soaks anything over 3 days is a waste of time. Only certain varietals benefit from Cold Soaks. Cab and Merlot are not one of them Sangiovese is. Most enzymes do a better job of extraction than cold soaks. Tannin additions at lag phase and at 1/3 third sugar depletion locks color in. Ferments over 85 degrees aid in extraction and locking color in. Fruit is not lost going in the the high 80s when fermenting. Extended maceration is not very useful if less than 21 days after fermentation is complete. Ripeness of grapes is the key to extended maceration. Anything less than optimal will extract unwanted seed tannins. Also to correct one thing Opti Red and Booster Rouge are not enzymes. Grape skin extract is fine in small amounts yet can affect taste when used in too much quantity. And my own opinion I am not convinced at all about delayed MLf doing anything. And last using Milk jugs and water jugs is dangerous as they crack very easily in your fermenter.
Use thicker plastic containers for Ice bombs
Malvina

great summary, thank you. in my basement must temperature never got higher than 28C at peak. wonder what temperature you inoculate the must at? do you heat the must during the first few days of AF so it spikes over 30C?

 

[altavino]

when you say 2g/L oak, you mean volume of must or finished wine?

estimated finnished wine.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

great summary, thank you. in my basement must temperature never got higher than 28C at peak. wonder what temperature you inoculate the must at? do you heat the must during the first few days of AF so it spikes over 30C?

Sorry about the Fahrenheit use. My fermenting room is usually in the mid to high 70s. The grapes cold soak under 50f. The yeast culture is built at 104f with the use of Go-Ferm at 110F. Then Yeast Tempering is employed. After the culture is growing for about an hour Must is added to lower by 10F degrees. The culture is allowed to grow again and after an hour more Must is added to lower another 10F degrees. At the same time buckets of Must are heated in hot water to raise them from 50F to 75F When the culture has dropped to 85F it is added to the Buckets at 75 and the buckets are allowed to grow for 10 hours. Then the Buckets are submerged in the Vat up to the top but not spilled. When the Bucket Temp is 10 degrees more than the Vat the Buckets are pitched. Fermaid O was already added to the Must 24 hours before the pitching. Then the temp of the Must is allowed to climb on its own with no external heat source. With this kind of culture building you will have no problem achieving the heat spike you are looking for. I should say we are talking about a vat with 1000 pounds of grapes. For smaller amounts you may not generate that much heat so wrapping the Vat with Bubble Wrap or Insulation will contain the heat generated better. And when you reach the spike you can remove the insulation. When my room gets too cool I too wrap the vats with insulation.

 

[tolikovski]

Sorry about the Fahrenheit use. My fermenting room is usually in the mid to high 70s. The grapes cold soak under 50f. The yeast culture is built at 104f with the use of Go-Ferm at 110F. Then Yeast Tempering is employed. After the culture is growing for about an hour Must is added to lower by 10F degrees. The culture is allowed to grow again and after an hour more Must is added to lower another 10F degrees. At the same time buckets of Must are heated in hot water to raise them from 50F to 75F When the culture has dropped to 85F it is added to the Buckets at 75 and the buckets are allowed to grow for 10 hours. Then the Buckets are submerged in the Vat up to the top but not spilled. When the Bucket Temp is 10 degrees more than the Vat the Buckets are pitched. Fermaid O was already added to the Must 24 hours before the pitching. Then the temp of the Must is allowed to climb on its own with no external heat source. With this kind of culture building you will have no problem achieving the heat spike you are looking for. I should say we are talking about a vat with 1000 pounds of grapes. For smaller amounts you may not generate that much heat so wrapping the Vat with Bubble Wrap or Insulation will contain the heat generated better. And when you reach the spike you can remove the insulation. When my room gets too cool I too wrap the vats with insulation.

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f60/members/altavino thanks!!! much appreciate you reply.
I usually do 100lb at the time, so no wonder I can't get must to the peak temp in a cool basement

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f60/members/altavino thanks!!! much appreciate you reply.
I usually do 100lb at the time, so no wonder I can't get must to the peak temp in a cool basement

One thing a dose of Fermaid K at 18 brix will give you some heat