RJS En Primeur vs WE Private Res with skins

[katmike57]

Now this is probably nit-picking. I've done both with grape skins and there's a differnce in the instructions on how to ferment with skins....

WE says to keep the skins submerged - "grape skin bag must be punched down daily..." but the RJS instructions don't really address it other than to say "stir every 2 days"

What do you all do with the grapes skins during fermentation?

 

[tjgaul]

Whenever I have a skins kit I punch down/stir twice a day during the most active fermentation, cutting back to once per day once the SG gets down to about 1.010. I skip the bag most of the time and, as of late, generally go with an extended maceration. Once the wine is around SG 1.000 I put it under airlock and stir every 3-4 days purging the airspace with CO2 before sealing back up. Skipping the bag can be very messy if you do not have a good method of filtering the racking out of primary. I usually try to leave the wine undisturbed for a full week before the initial racking to let most of the debris settle at the bottom.

After doing this for a few years I hardly look at the instructions unless there's a component in the kit that I am unfamiliar with. I think most people develop their own routine over time.

 

[jumby]

I weigh the skins bag down with marbles to keep it submerged no matter what kit I'm using.

 

[Sailor323]

When I made wine directly from grapes I punched down the cap on a daily basis. Obviously using a bag is not possible when dealing with a couple of hundred pounds of grapes. Now, using kits, I punch down the bag on a daily basis although the bag doesn't float until the third or fourth day. On a related note, how the heck do you get ALL the skins from the pack into the bag. I squeeze out what I can and try to rinse the rest from the pack but I can never get all of the skins.

 

[sour_grapes]

On a related note, how the heck do you get ALL the skins from the pack into the bag. I squeeze out what I can and try to rinse the rest from the pack but I can never get all of the skins.

I place the skins bag on a countertop and use something hard and flat as a squeegee, pushing any recalcitrant skins towards the spout of the bag.

 

[cmason1957]

When I made wine directly from grapes I punched down the cap on a daily basis. Obviously using a bag is not possible when dealing with a couple of hundred pounds of grapes. Now, using kits, I punch down the bag on a daily basis although the bag doesn't float until the third or fourth day. On a related note, how the heck do you get ALL the skins from the pack into the bag. I squeeze out what I can and try to rinse the rest from the pack but I can never get all of the skins.

I do about what you do. Squeeze what I can, add a little water, slosh it around. One thing I do maybe different, is I cut the corner off the bag, rather than trying to squeeze them out of the little hole in the middle of the bag. I can usually get 99% or more of the skins and such from out of the bag. that's good enough for me.

 

[Gilmango]

I soak the bag(s) of wet jammy skins in a bowl full of my hottest tap water for 10 minutes or so (makes everything flow more smoothly). Then cut wide across one corner with scissors. Then try to roll up methodically from the diagonally opposite corner. Squeezing into the muslin sack, which I've secured to the lip of my fermenter (some of the skin bags are so big that I found if I put the muslin sack in a bowl it would leak out as I squeezed it into the top of my Speidel; probably not an issue at all if going to a wider mouthed primary like a bucket). Also add warm water to rinse out anything left behind.

For the initial lag phase I try to leave it alone for a day or two till the yeast clearly gets going, I just observe it and take temp. and gravity readings. After that I push the bag down, stir it around, etc. twice per day, and note hydrometer and thermometer readings at least once a day. When it gets down to 1.000 I put the lid on (replacing cloth) with airlock on the Speidel. At that point I just rock it once or twice a day. I no longer open it as I want the CO2 to protect it while I do any extended maceration.

 

[Brian55]

I've found a simple step that makes it considerably easier. Cut the corner off the bag, then tug at the sides to pull some air into it while working the skins around a bit prior to attempting to pour it out. Most of it drops out fairly easily after this, then a quick rinse with some water and you're left with little to nothing lingering in the bag. Took me years of trying to squeeze the crap out of the bag with brute force, before I stumbled upon this little trick.

 

[Brian55]

I've found a simple step that makes it considerably easier. Cut the corner off the bag, then tug at the sides to pull some air into it while working the skins around a bit prior to attempting to pour it out. Most of it drops out fairly easily after this, then a quick rinse with some water and you're left with little to nothing lingering in the bag. Took me years of trying to squeeze the crap out of the bag with brute force, before I stumbled upon this little trick.

Update: This technique works better with the RJS bags. WE's goofy double layer bag is lacking in comparison. Speaking of which, just started my first of the new 14L WE kits. Starting SG of 1.080 on a red is definitely lacking. Although looking back at recent WE kits from the past couple years, most are in the same range. I guess this is why I tend to make mostly RJS kits.

 

[Swedeman]

Speaking of which, just started my first of the new 14L WE kits. Starting SG of 1.080 on a red is definitely lacking.

May I ask which kit that was? I have started four kits this far and all are in the same range as before their re formulation (above 1.090)

 

[Brian55]

May I ask which kit that was? I have started four kits this far and all are in the same range as before their re formulation (above 1.090)

The most recent was the LE2020 Grenache Tannat Shiraz. Prior to that two rounds of LE2019 SA Cape Blend, two Eclipse Three Moons Cabs, an LE2018 Barbaresco, an LE2016 Grenache/cab, and two Eclipse Bravado Super Tuscans. All of them at 1.080. Plus a LE2018 Fume Blanc at 1.075

The WE kits during that period that didn't fail in that regard were the Eclipse Merlot at 1.092, the Pecorino Pinot Grigio at 1.090, the LE2018 Corazon at 1.092, LE2017 Negroamaro at 1.088, an LE2018 Gewurztraminer at 1.090, LE2017 Chard/Chenin Blanc at 1.092, and an Eclipse bourbon barrel cab/zin at 1.088.

Similar kits from RJS have all been above 1.090. Keep in mind I short the water by .5 to 1 liter on all my kits, rendering this an even larger issue for those that don't.

 

[JBP]

i just started the LE2020 Grenache Tannat Shiraz a week ago - same experience. Chapitalized up to 1.098 because I had already added most of the water.

 

[Swedeman]

@Brian55 I have done most of the WE kits you're mentioning and none have been below 1,090. And i'm not shorting any water. My Fumé Blanc was 1,092, so that's a pretty big difference.

Will soon do the Super Tuscan and LE2020 Grenache Tannat Shiraz

 

[Brian55]

@Brian55 I have done most of the WE kits you're mentioning and none have been below 1,090. And i'm not shorting any water. My Fumé Blanc was 1,092, so that's a pretty big difference.

Will soon do the Super Tuscan and LE2020 Grenache Tannat Shiraz

Lucky you. I clearly haven't had the same luck with WE, which is why I will continue to make most of my wine from RJS kits. Hopefully they don't mess things up with their transition to more concentrated kits.

 

[Swedeman]

which is why I will continue to make most of my wine from RJS kits

RJS isn't sold here in Sweden so WE is the only option.

 

[Brian55]

RJS isn't sold here in Sweden so WE is the only option.

That's unfortunate, but at least you've had better luck than I, with WE.