Rosé ZERO skins time!

[Ajmassa]

: That is a lot of airspace in your photos given the amount of (low) foaming activity on the surface. On that alone, I would move it to a smaller container to limit airspace, and airlock.

Side note: I have had wines ferment in a few days, a few weeks and even in one case a few months (was not completed till January). Always, the longer ferments made better wines. Slower is better, IMHO. Do not be in a hurry. Wine making, if anything, should teach patients.

It’s been under airlock from the jump and bubbler is bubblin. I wasn’t worried about o2 as the co2 is plentiful. Shook up some samples before testing, and the Co2 felt infinite.
I felt safe for now but I do agree with u. But 4 gal is a funky size and a PITA. Regardless of the subtle activity I should probably figure a better setup for headspace if it’s gonna be a while.
But no hurry here!. My ferments are always quick so this is nice. I hope this thing drags on for a while while steadily dropping SG. I wish all my fruit came in late like this. Cooler ferments and.... NO FRUIT FLIES! Thank god.

 

[Ajmassa]

At this point I just wanna not screw this up!!
Cool, Slow & steady. Already dosed nutrients twice. Detected h2s. Aerated and now no longer noticeable. Raised temps just for a quick boost to make sure she’s moving along properly. Color seems more pink than the 1st one I did. Hope it stays that way. Here’s the timeline so far

10/26 - grapes crushed. strained off juice immediately (1st rosé I pressed). Transferred to BB leaving sediment behind
10/27 - racked off sediment into carboy. Inocculated d-47. 63° 1.103
10/29 - visible surface activity. DAP + FermK added - 65°
11/1 - vigorous activity subsided. 65° 1.093
11/2 - hints of h2s noticed. 64° 1.083
11/3 - nutrients added. stirred must. Added heat pad 65° 1.078
11/4 - morning- heat pad removed. 75° 1.075
11/4 - evening- aerated. h2s no longer noticeable. Now 8 total days since inoculation. 69°. 1.069 SG.

btw the main wine was inoculated on Monday at 50° after a little 7 day cold-soak experiment. Both wines are from 350lbs Wash St. Red Mountain. 100% Cab Sauv.
I added GoFerm directly into the must and sprinkled Avante on top. 2 full days later it’s at 63°. Surface yeast bubbling. No cap whatsoever yet. Sprinkling yeast seems to give a nice long extended lag phase compared to hydrating & mixing. Especially with a high skins:juice ratio. I also sprinkle pitched a batch last month & it was the same deal. It’s a good trick if someone wanted to gain a day or 2 of skins time.
Cab #’s
25% Brix°
3.61 ph
6.3g/L TA

 

[Ajmassa]

11/5 - 1.065.
Rosé moving at a snails pace. Still bubbling and dropping tho.
And on the cab still no skins cap as of this morning despite visible activity progression. I sprinkle pitched Monday night. as of Friday morning there has still yet to have a strong skins cap formed. Normally I don’t touch it until the first punch. I don’t punch until that cap is strong. At least a few inches. It’s noticeably progressing along a little each day and temps now at 65° but still no strong cap just yet. When this peaks I anticipate about 12” of cap.

Everything’s taking sooooo long. I believe this 4 day lag phase is from:
-low starting temps (50°) from the cold soak,
-lower ambient temps (65°)since it’s November
-sprinkle pitching taking longer to work through the wine
-the very very skins heavy must made heavier by saigneé

 

[cmason1957]

I think after four days (maybe wait until 6 or 7), I would give it a stir no matter what just to help that yeast spread throughout the must.

 

[stickman]

Based on your description it seems more like an un-inoculated ferment, just keep your nose in there and make sure nothing unusual is going on.

 

[Ajmassa]

Based on your description it seems more like an un-inoculated ferment, just keep your nose in there and make sure nothing unusual is going on.

The activity from the added yeast is obvious since it was in the surface. I’ve been able to watch the progression. And Temps been rising every day. But actually since it’s so thick I think good stir might kick everything off like @cmason1957 suggested.

here’s the progression so you know im not crazy.

Sunday - directly after cold soak transfer.
- thorough mixing - 45°

Monday 50° Yeast pitched

Tuesday - yeast activity fizzing directly where yeast was laying 60°


Wednesday - more pronounced surface activity 63°


Thursday - fizzing surface spots giving way activity throughout seen from co2 bubbles rising everywhere and the beginning of a skins cap. Level just starting to rise. 65°

** if the bottom has started fermenting from native yeast and the top from my cultured yeast-(not sure if possible) after mixing hopefully my cultured yeast would win out. Tho I don’t believe this to be happening since the bottom is a few degrees colder than the top

 

[stickman]

There is no question in my mind that Kloeckera or other non-Saccharomyces yeast are working in the un-inoculated portion of the must producing some complexity. This is generally what winemakers are looking for when doing un-inoculated ferments, and your yeast at the top should take over at some point once mixed (@cmason1957 beat me to it). As long as it smells clean you should be fine, but if you detect any funk, it would be best to mix to provide more competition to the lower level.

It looks good to me, I just wanted to provide a friendly reminder about the things you can't see.

 

[CDrew]

You are a patient man. If I had pitched on Monday and had minimal activity Friday I’d call 911. Can you warm it a bit just to give it a boost?

 

[balatonwine]

But 4 gal is a funky size and a PITA.

Yes. It is. I agree.

I have demijohns in 17 liters, 10 liters and 5 liters for smaller projects. But one always loosed a lot of wine during racking from one 17 to a 10 and a 5, and so on. At times one must top up with last year's wine, or adding marbles to the container.

 

[Ajmassa]

Yes. It is. I agree.

I have demijohns in 17 liters, 10 liters and 5 liters for smaller projects. But one always loosed a lot of wine during racking from one 17 to a 10 and a 5, and so on. At times one must top up with last year's wine, or adding marbles to the container.

And even with all that it would still be a hassle! 4gal is ~15L. 17L demi too big. 10L too small. It’s cool though. I do have an open 3gal and plenty of 5L, 4L, 1gal, 1/2gal jugs to make it work. I’ll probably transfer when it’s closer to to dryness. Maybe around 1.020 I guess.

 

[Ajmassa]

You are a patient man. If I had pitched on Monday and had minimal activity Friday I’d call 911. Can you warm it a bit just to give it a boost?

Eh. Considering all the factors at play it did all add u, instead of some unexplained anomaly.
And I was seeing consistent progress, albeit slow progress, but progress nonetheless. I pitched it so cold, plus I had just given it a shot of so2 as I was nervous native yeast would take it before I was ready. 30ppm
Confident b/c I used a super strong super tolerant yeast and these grapes are LOADED with sugar. The biggest factor is probably the skins ratio I bet. These berries were tiny. Like TINY tiny. So I know this thing was thick. Made even thicker with the saigneé. I’ll be mixing tonight tho no matter what. It’s far enoughalong that I think as soon as I mix it’s off to the races.
I once added 300lbs worth of skins to 5gal of juice— that ferment was ALL CAP. And basically sludge. But it fermented just fine and there were no issues. So I’m confident all around. I don’t wanna warm it up even if I could tbh. The way I look at it is —im just gettin more time on the skins!

 

[sour_grapes]

And even with all that it would still be a hassle! 4gal is ~15L. 17L demi too big. 10L too small. It’s cool though. I do have an open 3gal and plenty of 5L, 4L, 1gal, 1/2gal jugs to make it work. I’ll probably transfer when it’s closer to to dryness. Maybe around 1.020 I guess.

Drinking the leftover now is always an option!

 

[CDrew]

And even with all that it would still be a hassle! 4gal is ~15L. 17L demi too big. 10L too small. It’s cool though. I do have an open 3gal and plenty of 5L, 4L, 1gal, 1/2gal jugs to make it work. I’ll probably transfer when it’s closer to to dryness. Maybe around 1.020 I guess.

The small amounts are what make "home wine making" painful. If you're a winery a 5 gallon waste is not a thing. Everything you do is in 100's or 1000's gallons amounts. But when you're making 10 -20 gallons at a time, you end up with weird amounts like 4 gallons, it's hard to know what to do. There is much less margin for error. Me personally, I'd like to work in 5 gallon amounts, but on a home scale, this is not possible where every bottle is precious. LOL.

 

[Ajmassa]

The small amounts are what make "home wine making" painful. If you're a winery a 5 gallon waste is not a thing. Everything you do is in 100's or 1000's gallons amounts. But when you're making 10 -20 gallons at a time, you end up with weird amounts like 4 gallons, it's hard to know what to do. There is much less margin for error. Me personally, I'd like to work in 5 gallon amounts, but on a home scale, this is not possible where every bottle is precious. LOL.

And actually 4 gal was a mistake too. Was 10% of the 35gal must & rounded up. But should have done 10% of the juice (not must). Estimating 70% juice yield it woulda been about 2.5gal. And this is def not 70% juice. so in other words- I pulled more juice than I wanted to. 350lbsl gonna net me like no wine!— it’s like stirring mud

last night the wine had a dry cap couple inches thick. I punched and dosed fermK. Couldn testSg accurately since it’s like putting a stick in the mud. Somewhere between 1.105 and 1.090. And straining to be able to test is such a hassle. So, possibly not dropped yet or very little.
This morning cap was crazy thick. But not reforming quickly like it typically would at this point. At 66°

It’s fermenting and showing progress but still moving a very slow pace just like the rosé. For this reason I decided to not add malo and wait till after. I don’t wanna mess with it.
As long as I see consistent progress and no funky smells I’m just gonna stay the course.

 

[Ajmassa]

An update on these wines

Rosé —- 15 days since inoculating yeast. Last night 1.040. Today 1.036. Slow but consistent. Drops every day.

Cab — 9 days since inoculation (16days on skins)
Last night 1.056. Today 1.047. Slow but now speeding up

I ended up warming the room for the last few days. Maintaining about 74°. The rosé is right there at 75°. Been stirring 1x a day. Sometimes with lees. Mostly w/o.

The cab temps have started to rise. Peaking now at 77° post-punch. Very strong caps. Few hours to fully reform consistently. Smells amazing. Color is outstanding. Been punching and also some vigorous churning to aerate.

Long ferments are great in theory but when not expected it’s enough to take ya out of your comfort zone for sure. Nutrients are a damn mess for me since this is dragging out. I’m kinda just winging it. Advice is welcomed.

Rosé
I went standard. Full dose at onset. Another full dose at 1/3. But I feel that was a mistake and I should have spread it out since that’s likely all gone by now. Think 1.035ish is too late for nutrients to help this finish dry? I have FermO and yeast hulls as well as K & DAP.

Cabernet
I went full dose at onset. Then I started step feeding. 20% of a full dose last 3 nights (6g). Since doing this the SG drop has picked up and temps creeped up.
I’m at about the halfway point now so I want to give it a good shot to make sure enough is there to finish healthy because of how slow it’s going. Thinking of adding 1/2 dose of fermK matched with 1/2 dose of DAP. To this point I’ve added 60% of what would normally be my 2nd fermK dose. Feeling confident but this is uncharted territory for me. Any insight is welcome.

 

[CDrew]

First let me say, you have some beautiful looking wine. That Cab just looks amazing with just the right color notes. My vote-Complete your last feeding with the Fermaid O or K, leave the DAP in the drawer. Avante likes heat and once it hits a temp it likes, it will complete fast-like just a day or three.

Second-I'd leave the Rosé alone. It sounds like it's got enough food with 2 full feedings.

Third-You have some serious bottling to do looking in the background!

And where are you going to put all that wine after you press? It looks like you're out of storage.

 

[Ajmassa]

First let me say, you have some beautiful looking wine. That Cab just looks amazing with just the right color notes. My vote-Complete your last feeding with the Fermaid O or K, leave the DAP in the drawer. Avante likes heat and once it hits a temp it likes, it will complete fast-like just a day or three.

Second-I'd leave the Rosé alone. It sounds like it's got enough food with 2 full feedings.

Third-You have some serious bottling to do looking in the background!

And where are you going to put all that wine after you press? It looks like you're out of storage.

yeah man I’m excited forthis one. Supposed to be top notch grapes and so far it seems to be holding true with brix, acid, and color extraction as far as my novice eyes can tell. This wine will put me close to capacity for anything else substantial. Keeping at least one 54L demi open. Barrel time is now impossible. I could benefit from another. (And I really really want that 50L St Martin! Hopefully I can swing it)
Planning to repeat the same output next year. I definitely don’t want to add more demi’s tho. But I won’t bottle something until it’s ready. When Chilean comes around again Ill just do whatever I gotta do!
Real estate is going quick. A cellars market! [Corny dad joke warning]

 

[stickman]

The wine does look good, I'm sure you realize that you are now spoiled.

You might have to knock a hole in that cinder block and start tunneling for the barrel storage room, some chicken wire and a scratch coat on the walls and you're good to go!

 

[user 38734]

I like your SS counters, especially that small roller. Here's my zero-skin-time Rose' - the colors look similar. It took 14 days to go dry.

 

[Ajmassa]

The wine does look good, I'm sure you realize that you are now spoiled.

You might have to knock a hole in that cinder block and start tunneling for the barrel storage room, some chicken wire and a scratch coat on the walls and you're good to go!

Lol. You joke, but I’m over here runnin thru a mental checklist of what it would actually take to build something like that. And then the local headlines - “Local man buried alive after underground wine cellar collapses during excavation”

I like your SS counters, especially that small roller. Here's my zero-skin-time Rose' - the colors look similar. It took 14 days to go dry.

View attachment 68153

looks gorgeous! Hoping these long ferments benefit the wine like they say it does. In the background of that last pic you can see the 1st rosé I made. Was from Malbec grapes. Also zero skins time. Aged about 6 mos. now. Clear & tasty and if I didn’t want to tweak the acid I could bottle it now.

Your rosé already looks super clean and extremely similar color to my current ferment. What grape is it from?