Rose additions

[SLM]

Making my first rose from saignee process, trying to understand what additions/nutrients are beneficial. I have a basic understanding of what to use in reds, but what from this list would you use for rose and at what stage?

Lallzyme
Goferm
Opti-white
Fermaid O
Fermaid K

 

[CDrew]

Lallzyme - not needed
Go-Ferm-helpful
Optiwhite-I have used and liked in Rose
Fermaid O or K, pick one. Both are helpful.

Regarding nutrients, I treat Rose like a white wine. It needs more nutrients. And as a general rule, I'd pick O over K. But I'd use the higher end of the dosing range. On my last Barbera Rose, I did 3 Fermaid O additions, with the last dose being a smaller one.

Regarding Lallzyme, in red wines I *think* it makes them clarify faster. Even right after fermentation. Like maybe the pectinase part breaks up the pectin haze and could potentially be beneficial in Rose making. But I don't have direct experience here. Please report back if you use it. But don't use it before you saignee off the juice.

 

[winemaker81]

On my last Barbera Rose, I did 3 Fermaid O additions, with the last dose being a smaller one.

How do you determine the size of your doses, relative to the volume of juice?

 

[CDrew]

How do you determine the size of your doses, relative to the volume of juice?

I made 10ish gallons (4 cases) of Rose from Barbera. The recommended dose is 1.5 grams per gallon, so my first 2 additions were 1 g/gallon and then 0.5g/gallon. My 3rd addition was also 0.5 g/gallon. It may not have been needed but at 10 brix it was still really rocking and I got paranoid and made the addition. I was using D21 yeast (which I really like) and it zoomed through fermentation and went dry. It was a really good wine and we gave a couple of cases away, so unfortunately I only have 1 bottle left. Rose is definitely on the list for 2023!

You can read about it here starting at post #20.

 

[Ajmassa]

did u get the $5 additive kit from more wine? I used them a lot.

I agree with @CDrew.
—-the lallzyme is an enzyme that breaks down grape skins to achieve deeper color and more body. No skins? No lallzyme needed.
-—goFerm used when hydrating the yeast. Helpful.

—-Nutrients K or O. - No right or wrong here. But this is where I differ from CDdrew. Personally I don’t like O. It’s all natural and not as strong—that’s why the recommended dosage is higher at 1.5g/gal. Its helpful in certain situations. But I like the K at 1g/gal. With 2 full doses. One at first punch with an extra shot of DAP (or at 1st noticeable activity for rosé) Then another full dose about 1/3 to 1/2 thru.

If nutrients are needed after that I’ll use O. The rosé can need more than the base wine since it’s not receiving as much from skins macerating.

 

[winemaker81]

@CDrew, @Ajmassa, you've convinced me that I need to get a new scale that is good for 0.5 g weights.

I recently did something I never thought I would do. I purchased a pH meter. I've used pH strips for years and was comfortable with ball parking it. Not sure what the issue was, but I got inconsistent results with the current wines. I had been considering a pH meter (for like 2 years, so it's not like I was in a rush), but the inconsistent results pushed me over the fence.

Listening to feedback, I figured a cheap kit meant I'd buy it, then buy one that works well, so I went with the Apera Instruments PH60. I found the instructions to be painful to follow, and the vendor video to be too dry. Found another guy on YouTube who explained how easy the darned thing is to use, and he was correct.

Dang. Looks like I'm moving into the 21st century ... totally frogging my reputation as a curmudgeon.

 

[Ajmassa]

@CDrew, @Ajmassa, you've convinced me that I need to get a new scale that is good for 0.5 g weights.

I recently did something I never thought I would do. I purchased a pH meter. I've used pH strips for years and was comfortable with ball parking it. Not sure what the issue was, but I got inconsistent results with the current wines. I had been considering a pH meter (for like 2 years, so it's not like I was in a rush), but the inconsistent results pushed me over the fence.

Listening to feedback, I figured a cheap kit meant I'd buy it, then buy one that works well, so I went with the Apera Instruments PH60. I found the instructions to be painful to follow, and the vendor video to be too dry. Found another guy on YouTube who explained how easy the darned thing is to use, and he was correct.

Dang. Looks like I'm moving into the 21st century ... totally frogging my reputation as a curmudgeon.

If you dont want to lose some of that ‘old school’ appeal from your winemaking you could always just get one of these scales instead! I loved this thing!

 

[winemaker81]

If you dont want to lose some of that ‘old school’ appeal from your winemaking you could always just get one of these scales instead! I loved this thing!

While my winemaking attitudes from from the 1980's, I'm an IT guy, so my overall technology vibe is 2020's! I'll probably go with a digital scale, although I'd honestly trust your scale more.

 

[Ajmassa]

While my winemaking attitudes from from the 1980's, I'm an IT guy, so my overall technology vibe is 2020's! I'll probably go with a digital scale, although I'd honestly trust your scale more.

Yea. Notice I said loved. Past tense. Once I picked up a digital that OHAUS became a decoration. i bought just a cheap run of the mill digital scale on Amazon and it’s perfect. zero problems. precise to .1g. Coverts to g/ oz/ gn/ ct/ dwt/ ozt. And dirt cheap less than $10.

 

[ceeaton]

If nutrients are needed after that I’ll use O. The rosé can need more than the base wine since it’s not receiving as much from skins macerating.

AJ, your spot on, O is best used towards the end of fermentation if extra nutrients are needed. Scott Lab's has this one their site:

FERMAID O™ is an organic nitrogen source that helps to nourish yeast, improve aromas, and allows for good control over fermentation.

Reliably lowers peak fermentation temperatures and improves fermentation kinetics (especially at the end of fermentation), resulting in fewer sulfur off odors like H2S

Due to FERMAID O’s highly consistent and balanced amino acid profile, the nitrogen lasts longer and less nutrient is needed than when using conventional nitrogen sources (DAP)

FERMAID O use has been correlated with positive aromatic expression (thiols and esters) and enhanced mouthfeel

For K it has this:

FERMAID K™ is a complex yeast nutrient to assist with fermentation security, especially in low YAN situations.

This reliable nutrient provides many essential key elements required by the yeast for growth and reproduction

Best used if YAN needs cannot be met using FERMAID O

 

[Ajmassa]

AJ, your spot on, O is best used towards the end of fermentation if extra nutrients are needed. Scott Lab's has this one their site:

FERMAID O™ is an organic nitrogen source that helps to nourish yeast, improve aromas, and allows for good control over fermentation.

Reliably lowers peak fermentation temperatures and improves fermentation kinetics (especially at the end of fermentation), resulting in fewer sulfur off odors like H2S

Due to FERMAID O’s highly consistent and balanced amino acid profile, the nitrogen lasts longer and less nutrient is needed than when using conventional nitrogen sources (DAP)

FERMAID O use has been correlated with positive aromatic expression (thiols and esters) and enhanced mouthfeel

For K it has this:

FERMAID K™ is a complex yeast nutrient to assist with fermentation security, especially in low YAN situations.

This reliable nutrient provides many essential key elements required by the yeast for growth and reproduction

Best used if YAN needs cannot be met using FERMAID O

You forgot one important piece of information…

Go Birds!

 

[ceeaton]

Well, after the Phillies dispatching of the Braves, I didn't want to ask too much.

What a weekend it will be when Dallas goes home sad (sorry @ibglowin )!

 

[SLM]

OK I did not add Lallzyme. No opti-white because I don't have any and didn't want to make a trip. Rehydrated yeast with Goferm. Ferment started slow but sure. Interesting, the MoreWine bible recommends Fermaid O, then K, so that's what I've been doing all along, might as well continue the tradition. I must say, the base wine is the most intense color concentration I have ever seen.

 

[Jay204]

I've made rosé from saignee for the past 3 years. I've only ever used Go-Ferm and two additions of Fermaid-O. Never had any issues with fermentation and always liked the outcome. You may want to add something like Lysozyme if you're worried about the wine going through ML, but it hasn't happened to any of my rosé yet.

You've already started making the wine, so this may not be of help, but I also try to target a lower starting pH than my red's. I usually add tartaric to bring the must down to a pH of 3.4. The lower pH may even help a bit with keeping the MLF at bay.

How does the starting color of the rosé look?

 

[SLM]

How does the starting color of the rosé look?

Well since you asked... At crush the juice looked quite pink almost immediately, so inside of half an hour I siphoned off about 5 gallons. Then I started reading how others make rose and decided it was too pale. So I added a bit of inky juice that had sat on skins for 2 days. I like my rose on the dark side so hopefully it will still have good color once it clears.