Salvaging my beginner mistakes

[noob1337]

Hello,

I am new to winemaking and found myself with 80+ pounds of yellow plums about to rot away about 40 days ago.
I got some bad winemaking advice and unclear recipe instruction, combined with lack of supplies, lack of knowledge and general panic.

The recipie I used had the following proportions that I multiplied for my plumb haul:
5kg (11lbs) plums,
3kg (6.6lbs) sugar,
4Litres (1.06gallon) water.

This is what I have done:

21 august: cleaning and sterilizing buckets and equipment, crushing the fruit and adding water but did not add any sugar. I did also not use any sulfides!

22 august: Started fermentation using bread yeast (yes, I know, very bad advice...) Airlocks installed in lids
Did not have a hydrometer yet so starting gravity unknown.
Punched down the caps and stirred the buckets daily for first few days, with good yeast activity.
Bubbles stopped after a couple days, as I hadn't added the sugar.

25-26 august: Added only 30% of the total sugarwater from recipie, as I was still waiting for supplies to arrive. I was thinking I could "delay" things this way but not wanting to stall fermentation completely either.

30 august: Pressed and "filtered" the wine trough cheesecloth. Thus also racking it off the sediment in the process. Back into buckets as carboys still had not arrived.
Added All the remaining 70% of the sugar water solution.
Added high alcohol wine yeast and yeast nutrient that had now arrived.
I dissolved the wine yeast in water with appropriate temperature but did not let it sit for very long (maybe an 30-60 minutes) before adding it to the wine. There was about 3-4 inches of headspace (!) in the buckets. Airlock activity started again somewhat.

11 sept: Carboys arrived so I finally racked to them. Wrong headspace so I had to top up with some water. (about 5% water compared to the wines total volume)

So the wine has been in the carboys for over 20 days now.
I took some hydrometer measurements today: 2 of my 6 gallon carboys are sitting at 62 and 65.
So I seem to be stuck, there is some very minor airlock activity, but this wine may take forever to finish.
I realize that the measurement may have been affected by CO2 bubbles in the wine, since I took the measurement directly inside the carboy.
I may need to re-measure outside of the carboys where I can stir the CO2 out.
Had reasonable temps in the room the entire time of fermentation: 23-28 Celsius. (73-83 Fahrenheit)

I am trying to figure out what caused the stall. I think the wine yeast may have failed to multiply because of being outnumbered by the existing bread yeast, while the bread yeast may then have failed because of alcohol level.
Maybe I killed the wine yeast by shock from adding it too quickly to the wine?
So I have been thinking of making a starter with the last bag of high alcohol wine yeast that I have and add that to one of the carboys to see if it comes alive. (Risk of excessive foam going in the airlock with this much sugar content?)

But I dont have a clue at this point...
Any ideas will be greatly appreciated!

 

[winemaker81]

This is an interesting read. Your recipe is a poor one -- many old recipes are records of what worked, not what is best. Given what you had to start with, you actually did good.

First -- if you don't have a hydrometer, get one. Without a hydrometer, winemaking is guesswork. If you got one -- what is the SG?

Second -- the recipe calls for WAY too much sugar. 1 pound of sugar (0.45 kg) will raise 1 US gallon of water from SG 1.000 to 1.045. Typically 2 pounds (0.9 kg) are added to 1 US gallon, which with natural fruit sugar will push the SG high enough that you might get a 14% ABV wine. You added over 3 times that much. I'm honestly surprised the wine fermented as the yeast might not be able to eat that high of a concentration of sugar.

Third -- the reason the ferment stopped is the yeast literally poisoned its own environment by producing too much alcohol. At this point, the wine is very sweet, right?

5 kg plums is high for making a 4 liter fruit wine, which is actually good. It would have worked far better if you had added 0.75 to 0.90 kg sugar. But you trusted the recipe. [I'm not pointing fingers -- my first wine was rhubarb made with bread yeast using a recipe I found in a local newspaper.]

What to do to recover? I would not normally recommend it at this point, but if you can get another 5 to 6 kg of fruit, put the wine back in a large bucket, add the fruit, and another 8 liters of water. The water will thin the must enough that the yeast should continue, and added additional fruit will keep add body and flavor so the wine won't be thin. If it doesn't restart, add more yeast.

Ideally you want more plums, but any fruit will do. If using something other than plums you'll get a Frankenwine (a term I use for wine that is a mixture of things), but you should get something drinkable when you're done.

I wrote a post describing a basic winemaking process. This is intended to be understandable by beginners, and it not intended to be comprehensive. In my sig is a link for the MoreWine! manuals -- download the red wine manual. This one is very comprehensive, but it's too much to take in all at once. After reading my post, skim the red wine manual to get more information.

If you something doesn't make sense and/or if you have more questions -- post them!

Before you start another batch, post your recipe for comment. You'll get good feedback.

 

[noob1337]

Thank you for your reply Winemaker! You gave some good food for thought.

the recipe calls for WAY too much sugar

I did some calculations:

If we assume that my plums had a decent sugar content of 20% (16g carbs, 78g water weight)
5kg plums = 1kg fruit sugar, 4kg fruit water

And they were added at 5kgs per 3kg sugar and 4kg(=Litres) of water.
This solution comes out to 1+3 kg of sugar and 4+4 kg water,
Total sugar: 4kg/12kg = 1/3 = 33% = 33 brix

My strong-wine yeast specifies a maximum 18% of potential ABV
Which comes out to 28.5 brix

So to water the wine down I need to add:
4kg/0.285brix=14.035 kg

14kg-12kg=2kg

= two litres of extra water per 5kg plums in the original recipe.
(Unless my math is wrong.)

Am I missing something? Can I really ferment a strong-wine with a "28.5 brix" like this?

Now I have to figure out what to do with the extra volume of wine.
Maybe I could quickly ferment and clear the wine that occupies my smaller containers and bottle it to free up some more space.....

 

[noob1337]

Another thing, say I want to move this wine to a larger container and add water, do I want to keep the sediment? Normally you would rack to get rid of the sediment, but isnt there nutrients in there that I may want to keep in the wine until this fermentation is done? I did get rid of sediment earlier when racking from buckets into carboys, about 23 days ago.

 

[vinny]

I just wanted to point out that panic wasn't in my first recipe, but it was still part of the process. Wine making is forgiving, as long as you keep O2 out, it's not getting worse.

Take a deep breath.

Bryan nailed step number one. Get a hydrometer. Get a reading of where you are. Post that number here.

My number 2? I am a senses guy. Taste it. Can it handle being watered down. It will be sweet, but is it full enough to stretch? Juice is another option other than water, or a mixture of the 2 to get you to the ratios you need without over diluting.

If you look at this like you have enough sugar for a 70 liter batch (I didn't do the math, just saying) then you need to correct fruit and water and probably pitch more yeast. Takes away some of the stress of what the hell is going on..

EC-1118 is the go to for this situation.

Sediment is probably an either or. It would be fine lees, yeast, over fruit solids, if you already racked. Not a big deal if you get some in primary.

 

[winemaker81]

@noob1337, glad to be of assistance.

Your calculations appear correct. However, you are dealing with natural products and numerous natural processes, so the equation work only if you are 100% sure of the inputs. I've been doing thing long enough to advise that trusting equations to be correct is a mistake.

If you need to add X amount of something to the wine, add 1/4 X. Stir well and taste test. It is far easier to add more than it is to take some out.


Dave (@vinny), he's using high potency yeast, so adding EC-1118 probably won't do anything.

 

[vinny]

Dave (@vinny), he's using high potency yeast, so adding EC-1118 probably won't do anything.

I meant after dilution.. Just throwing out the tried and true. Am I wrong in my understanding that when a yeast reaches its alcohol limit it dies rather than goes dormant, and he will need to create a new colony?

 

[noob1337]

I was thinking of trying diluting a little of the wine that I keep in 1-litre bottles with airlocks. (I had kept them for later to tap up carboys after racking)
Like I said earlier, my hydrometer is currently reading the wine around 1.060. Sweet like syrup!
I think it could do with some watering down, since it is also harsh tasting. But it is a plum wine, I have read that they tend to be very "green" and need lots of aging. Hopefully it takes off after adding water, or I could mix a starter with the rest of this strong wine yeast.
A big problem for me is the sheer size of the batch, so to add lots of more fruit and water, I dont have any more carboys nor the space to put them.
I understand that this is a very clumsy batch, so I may not reach that ABV number.

I am happy as long as I succeed in producing something resembling alcohol.

 

[winemaker81]

I meant after dilution.. Just throwing out the tried and true. Am I wrong in my understanding that when a yeast reaches its alcohol limit it dies rather than goes dormant, and he will need to create a new colony?

Good point. You may be right on that.

I think it could do with some watering down, since it is also harsh tasting.

Young wine doesn't necessarily taste like wine. Don't make any changes based upon current taste.

 

[FlamingoEmporium]

Yeah, my first thoughts were “way too much sugar”.
For fruit wines you add sugar after checking your initial SG andthen only enough to get it to 1.100or just under. Try to dilute with an unsweetened natural juice instead of water if possible throw in some ec1118 and hope the ferment will kick in. If not, it might make a great Frankenwine if you blend it with a new batch of some sort of compatible fruit wine.

it’s not a lost cause until it tastes horrible is dark brown and smelly or gives you explosive diarrhea for more than an hour.

 

[vinny]

it’s not a lost cause until it tastes horrible is dark brown and smelly or gives you explosive diarrhea for more than an hour.

I have never thought about the criteria I would need to write off a wine, but yup, those are on the list.

 

[winemaker81]

I have never thought about the criteria I would need to write off a wine, but yup, those are on the list.

From my time owning a LHBS, I learned the three stages of wine tasting -- look, sniff, taste.

Look at the wine -- if it doesn't look like wine, e.g., if there are unidentifiable chunks floating in it or if the color is an ugly brown, stop.

Sniff the wine -- your nose will tell you many things immediately, and if it smells nasty, it is nasty. Full stop.

Taste the wine -- if the wine gets past the sniff test, it's 99.9% likely to be ok. If anyone gets to the "explosive diarrhea" stage, it's 'cuz they didn't listen to their nose!

I had a customer bring a sample -- it was an opaque shade of brown and there were odd-shaped white things floating around in it. I made the mistake of sniffing it. Wow, that was bad. No way it was getting anywhere close to my lips! I told him it was oxidized, and didn't get an explanation of how it got to that point. I think he was actually drinking it.

My number 2? I am a senses guy. Taste it. Can it handle being watered down. It will be sweet, but is it full enough to stretch? Juice is another option other than water, or a mixture of the 2 to get you to the ratios you need without over diluting.

Dave, that's a great idea, thinning the must with a low sugar juice. That will reduce the sugar while not diluting the flavor too much.

@noob1337, using this method should get the fermentation going again. It may never finish dry, but fruit wines want some backsweetening, so it may be acceptable.

 

[noob1337]

Hello again guys!

I tried cutting my two small 1L bottles with some water yesterday. The hydrometer measured 45 before diluting and 36 after. They have been sitting for 24h now with no yeast activity happening yet. (looks like my carboys will need a yeast starter then)

I had the bottles airlocks off when working and I poured the excess into a smaller bottle. The bottles all have needle-pierced balloons for airlocks.

Because of this, I came to think of something: Aren't I at risk of oxidizing the wine, seeing how no sulfates have ever been added? When I take airlocks off to measure? Or if I move wine that has stopped fermenting into other containers to add water and trying to restart the fermentation? Normally one would protect the wine with sulfates, seeing how fermentation has stopped, but that seems like it would be bad if I want to keep on fermenting.

 

[winemaker81]

A new yeast starter may help.

If you have active fermentation, oxidation is not a problem as the wine is emitting CO2.

Fear of O2 among home winemakers is so common and so wrong. Oxidation is NOT a rapid effect. Oxidation is a factor of wine volume vs headspace volume vs time. If O2 exposure was rapid, no one would have wine because it would be ruined the first time anyone racked or removed an airlock. We add K-meta to address any O2 exposure.

When working with wine, be efficient but don't sweat O2 exposure. Add K-meta at every racking to mitigate exposure.

 

[noob1337]

If you have active fermentation, oxidation is not a problem as the wine is emitting CO2.

When working with wine, be efficient but don't sweat O2 exposure. Add K-meta at every racking to mitigate exposure.

Looking at my two 6gal carboys. I dont know if there is active fermentation. There is some very slow airlock activity, it may just be some slow off-gassing.
I have never added any sulfides to it. Even though I intend to restart them I should still add some sulfides now, just to be safe right? I will wait 24h after sulfides before adding a starter.

1/4 teaspoon k-meta powder per 5 gal, so for a 6 gal carboy, I should use 0.3 tsp correct? Or should I use more since I have never added any at all?

 

[winemaker81]

@noob1337, it's likely at this time you do not have active fermentation, but the wine is degassing. If the SG is not changing, fermentation is done or stalled.

You can add K-meta now (which is sulfite, not sulfide), and add the starter 12-24 hours later. Commercial yeast is SO2 tolerant.

The 1/4 tsp dosage is applicable to 19-23 liters (5 to 6 US gallons). Some folks do SO2 testing and calculate dosage based upon the pH. I don't bother, as practical experimentation has proven to my satisfaction that being within a ballpark is sufficient.

Note on terminology -- you'll see people corrected when the use the term "sulfate" or "sulfide" in place of "sulfite", as the 3 are all very different. We correct the terminology as beginners won't know the difference, and very bad results can occur if the wrong compound is used. Folks will be reading these posts 15 years from now, so we are writing for a future audience.

 

[noob1337]

You can add K-meta now (which is sulfite, not sulfide), and add the starter 12-24 hours later. Commercial yeast is SO2 tolerant.

Thank you!

If I dilute my 6 gal (23L) carboy with water and add the excess to another smaller container (maybe 4-5L). How do I add starter to that?
I have one bag of yeast left that says its for max 25L. Can I make a starter and take about maybe 1/5 or 1/6 of it and add to the small vessel, adding the rest to the big carboy?

 

[winemaker81]

Thank you!

If I dilute my 6 gal (23L) carboy with water and add the excess to another smaller container (maybe 4-5L). How do I add starter to that?
I have one bag of yeast left that says its for max 25L. Can I make a starter and take about maybe 1/5 or 1/6 of it and add to the small vessel, adding the rest to the big carboy?

Yes.

 

[noob1337]

I realized I have some pectic enzyme, can I add that to the wine as well, or is it too late at this stage?

 

[winemaker81]

I realized I have some pectic enzyme, can I add that to the wine as well, or is it too late at this stage?

You can add pectic enzyme at any time, although after fermentation starts, it may be necessary to double the dosage