Sanitizing bottles

[wbhutchins]

Hello everyone. I noticed that some of my bottled wine had a more acid taste than others and just realized that may be because I have been using a solution of Star San before bottling. I see faucet attachments to rinse the bottles. Should I be using one of these or just simply give my bottles a quick swish of tap water and stand in a rack before I bottle wine in them?

I was trying to be careful that I didn't ruin my wine with any contaminates in the bottle and (I think) contaminated my wine.

 

[MarkSC]

Not likely. StarSan is about the same pH as wine and a little bit left in a bottle is not going to make a difference to overall acidity. Most of us rinse with StarSan, let dry a bit and bottle. Rinsing with tap water defeats the point by introducing new contaminants.

 

[wbhutchins]

I noticed that the manufacturer makes two different versions. Saniclean, Five Star Saniclean- 32 oz., Multi https://a.co/d/iFbuJL2 and Star San, Five Star - Star San - 16 Ounce - Brew Sanitizer High Foaming Acid Anionic https://a.co/d/4L3D2g3

Is there any benefit to using one or the other?

 

[BigDaveK]

I agree, Star San most likely is innocent.

Wine chemistry is incredibly complex and interesting. Two things pop into my head -
First - acid levels do increase a bit in some wines.
Second - perhaps other elements in your wine have changed to give the perception of increased acid.

What kind of wine is it? And did you take pH readings during the process?

 

[wbhutchins]

I agree, Star San most likely is innocent.

Wine chemistry is incredibly complex and interesting. Two things pop into my head -
First - acid levels do increase a bit in some wines.
Second - perhaps other elements in your wine have changed to give the perception of increased acid.

What kind of wine is it? And did you take pH readings during the process?

It was a dragon blood following danger Dave's recipe. Most bottles turned out great. I just had one bottle I had to dump. Was absolutely sour that I took as acid taste. Next bottle right next to it, perfect. Unfortunately no. Didn't take pH readings. I have a meter, but haven't used it yet. I recall it needing some kind of calibration. Just haven't needed that info yet. Guess I do now. Lol
On that note, giving them just a bit of aging makes them so much better. Just hard not to break into them sitting there so pretty.

 

[vinny]

@winemaker81 has noted that he made a kit and bottled it at the recommended bottle date where he usually bulk ages longer, 3months+ before bottling. Because the wine was young it was still going through chemical changes and being in smaller batches (bottles), he noted distinctly different qualities between the bottles.

How long did you allow this wine to age before bottling?

 

[winemaker81]

I was originally taught what I call the 1-3-3 Rule (1 week fermentation, 3 weeks clearing, 3 months bulk aging), which is a minimum of 4 months before bottling. In recent months I've noted various books and blogs stating a 4 month minimum, although the reasonings behind this varied. It appears to be another rule-of-thumb (like 1/4 tsp K-meta per 19-23 liters wine) that was developed through numerous experiences and is well propagated.

To expand on Dave's (@vinny) comment, a few years back I bottled a kit on kit schedule, and had ugly variances between bottles. A few were very good, some were decent, and all too many had kit wine taste (off flavor). Bottling too soon is the most likely answer.

 

[wbhutchins]

@winemaker81 has noted that he made a kit and bottled it at the recommended bottle date where he usually bulk ages longer, 3months+ before bottling. Because the wine was young it was still going through chemical changes and being in smaller batches (bottles), he noted distinctly different qualities between the bottles.

How long did you allow this wine to age before bottling?

Well I read it is drinkable immediately. But this was just about a month later. And admittedly, the few bottles I still have left (aged about 2 months now) are phenomenally better than consuming immediately. I suppose that could have been the issue. Just didn't wait long enough. That's the hardest part about this, getting enough made that you can let it sit undisturbed for 6 months!

 

[Rice_Guy]

Hello everyone. I noticed that some of my bottled wine had a more acid taste than others and just realized that may be because I have been using a solution of Star San before bottling. I see faucet attachments to rinse the bottles. Should I be using one of these or just simply give my bottles a quick swish of tap water and stand in a rack before I bottle wine in them?

I was trying to be careful that I didn't ruin my wine with any contaminates in the bottle and (I think) contaminated my wine.

On a numbers basis a drop typically is 0.05 gram. If you drain, while preparing other equipment say 30 minutes, would you have 0.10 gram of liquid in a bottle?
If your bottle is 750 ml/ and our normal target for total acid is 0.5 to 0.7%, ,, this works out to 3.75 to 5.25 grams. , , , , , I doubt you could taste 0.1 gram of extra acid. ,,,, BUT your drop isn't 100% acid so we should ask could you taste say 0.01 gram of acid or 0.001 gram

The question I would pose is oxidation, oxidized ethyl alcohol has a sharp flavor kinda like dried apricot. , , , , , How big is the head space? is the bottle ullage uniform?

 

[Raptor99]

@wbhutchins Did you backsweeten at all? If so, was the sugar thoroughly mixed in?

 

[wbhutchins]

@wbhutchins Did you backsweeten at all? If so, was the sugar thoroughly mixed in?

I could see where backsweetening could cause an issue. Yes, I did. And I felt pretty confident I stirred it quite well, but maybe that is something to look at. I am using my whip and a drill to mix in the carboy. Maybe I should give it a longer stir. This is good. I was hoping someone had input that I could figure out what I am doing wrong. This is a fun hobby though. Tasty too!

 

[wbhutchins]

On a numbers basis a drop typically is 0.05 gram. If you drain, while preparing other equipment say 30 minutes, would you have 0.10 gram of liquid in a bottle?
If your bottle is 750 ml/ and our normal target for total acid is 0.5 to 0.7%, ,, this works out to 3.75 to 5.25 grams. , , , , , I doubt you could taste 0.1 gram of extra acid. ,,,, BUT your drop isn't 100% acid so we should ask could you taste say 0.01 gram of acid or 0.001 gram

The question I would pose is oxidation, oxidized ethyl alcohol has a sharp flavor kinda like dried apricot. , , , , , How big is the head space? is the bottle ullage uniform?

All good questions. Don't think headspace was the issue. I filled the bottles within an inch of the cork. And all the bottles are a uniform shape too. Though the taste might have been like you describe. It was only one bottle that was bad, but I also noticed a change over time for the better, which is what one would expect. Maybe I should just avoid drinking then before they are ready?! Hard when it's the first batch done.

 

[Raptor99]

The flavor will improve over time, but the difference in sweetness level probably has a different cause. It sounds like you tasted two different bottles at about the same time.

I have found it difficult to get sugar completely dissolved. I usually heat a small amount water to dissolve the sugar first, then add it to the wine. Either that, or use previously prepared simple syrup.

 

[Shurt1073]

My Dragons Blood has made a slight change for the better in the bottle after 5-6 weeks and the plan is to have a bottle tonight. The DB thread talks about how its ready to drink immediately but again ..... just after a few weeks the taste in mine has changed for the better while in the bottle and I only bulk aged about 5-6 weeks before bottling . (I was leaving town for a while) I've decided to follow winemaker81 1-1-3 rule or wait even longer to bottle because I found out the hard way on another grape wine how wine changes over time for the better, but thats another story.

 

[wbhutchins]

I was originally taught what I call the 1-3-3 Rule (1 week fermentation, 3 weeks clearing, 3 months bulk aging), which is a minimum of 4 months before bottling. In recent months I've noted various books and blogs stating a 4 month minimum, although the reasonings behind this varied. It appears to be another rule-of-thumb (like 1/4 tsp K-meta per 19-23 liters wine) that was developed through numerous experiences and is well propagated.

To expand on Dave's (@vinny) comment, a few years back I bottled a kit on kit schedule, and had ugly variances between bottles. A few were very good, some were decent, and all too many had kit wine taste (off flavor). Bottling too soon is the most likely answer.

So you are saying stabilize and clear, wait 3 weeks, then rack and backsweeten, leaving it in the carboy for 3 months? Only bummer about that is it uses up my equipment, but if that's the best way... I'll do it.

 

[BigDaveK]

There's many reasons to bulk age but one is uniformity. Getting much of the aging done in one container means the bottles should be the "same", at least that's the plan. Each bottle is it's own little world and things can happen.

Did you only have one bottle that tasted overly acidic, is that what I'm reading? Maybe you had acetobacter starting to turn it to vinegar and you tasted early in the process.

As far as using up your equipment? Obviously you need more equipment!

 

[wbhutchins]

There's many reasons to bulk age but one is uniformity. Getting much of the aging done in one container means the bottles should be the "same", at least that's the plan. Each bottle is it's own little world and things can happen.

Did you only have one bottle that tasted overly acidic, is that what I'm reading? Maybe you had acetobacter starting to turn it to vinegar and you tasted early in the process.

As far as using up your equipment? Obviously you need more equipment!

So far, out of the 25 I bottled and some I gave away , only 1 had a distinctly bad taste. Hope none of the ones I gave away were bad! My wife isn't going to want to hear I need more carboys! But that's what I hear! Lol

 

[wbhutchins]

@BigDaveK , I've started buying the PET carboys. They are less than half the price of Italian glass ones.

Is there any concern with using plastic versus glass? Assuming you do the vacuum degassing in the glass ones.

Sorry I'm full of questions... Do you apply the 1-3-3 rule to every batch? Skeeter Pee too?

I guess it's all technically wine, so I am probably answering my own question. But the author of skeeterpee.com (currently offline for some reason) seemed to believe it is completely ready to drink at bottling (2 months from start to bottling). Of course, so did DangerDave in his recipe. Darn! Guess I have to be a lot more patient than I thought!!

Ok, last question for now... Do you buy your carboys on Amazon or have you sought out a local source? Competitive in pricing?

 

[Rice_Guy]

So you are saying stabilize and clear, >>> wait 3 weeks, >>> rack (additives as K meta/sorbate) >>> backsweeten, >>> leaving it in the carboy for 3 months?

I will sweeten and bottle that day, >>> on a numbers game if I am going to have a problem leaving it in a five gallon increases the risk into the whole batch, ,,,, if I have five colony forming units at most five bottles would be at risk

 

[Raptor99]

I will sweeten and bottle that day

Does anyone else do this? Many people have said that we should backsweeten and then wait a few weeks to bottle. Since I usually bulk age for at least 6 months, that plus stabilization would make refermentation very unlikely. Maybe bottling the same day is fine. It helps to simplify the process.