Smallest realistic batches?

[alurpal]

I’m a new wine maker (previous hobbyist beer maker) and I love the theory behind wine and I’m an experimenter at heart.

The fruit and flower wines I’d like to make have many variables: ratio of base ingredient, acid, alcohol content, body (and ways to achieve body), yeast, etc.

I’m making a 1 gallon Jack Keller kiwi recipe as my first but with all the potential variables, it seems more worth my time to get a bunch of slightly varied batches going so I can better understand how each affect the outcome. I don’t really want 10 one gallon batches, but I would be all for having 10 1 bottle sized batches.

Long story short, can I realistically expect repeatable results if I used wine bottles as secondary vessels for experiments? What challenges would I expect with this approach?

 

[Ohio Bob]

Racking will be difficult if using bottles as your fermentation vessel. I don’t know how you can get the clear wine separated from the lees. Maybe a wide mouth jar, with a matching lid that can take an airlock. Also, when you rack, and leave the lees behind, you’ll need some wine to top off, to keep the airspace at the top of the bottle to a minimum.

 

[alurpal]

Racking will be difficult if using bottles as your fermentation vessel. I don’t know how you can get the clear wine separated from the lees. Maybe a wide mouth jar, with a matching lid that can take an airlock. Also, when you rack, and leave the lees behind, you’ll need some wine to top off, to keep the airspace at the top of the bottle to a minimum.

Good point. Even if I offset the lost liquid with glass beads or something, the final bottling would still be short.

 

[Old Corker]

For Christmas I got a growler from a local brew pub. I’m not a big beer drinker so it’s not likely I’ll get it refilled but the half gallon jug went into my collection of racking tools. Maybe those would work for you.

 

[distancerunner]

One gallon, five gallons, or a half gallon, it’s the same amount of work. The only difference is how long it takes to rack X amount of liquid into a receiving vessel.

One gallon is about the smallest amount I’d want to experiment with. Prefer to experiment with five or six gallons. Allows for more choices (container sizes) when racking.

 

[BigDaveK]

Another adventurous wine maker!

My tips -
Fruit? The more the better. Shoot for 100% fruit or juice. There are exceptions that need dilution.
Flowers? Add 50% more than a recipe calls for - at least. I have a 100% Day Lily juice (yes, juice) in secondary right now.
All recipes? Add more of the flavor ingredient.

Important tip - always always always taste your main ingredient. If it doesn't taste great or at least good, don't bother making wine. Flavor does not magically appear. Even taste the flowers. For example, fresh honeysuckle is delicious, one day later it starts to become bitter. Same thing with herbs and mints. After the plant flowers the leaves become bitter.

Size? I have a couple experiments on my list and I may go as small as a half gallon, but probably not. The main reason is because time is a very important ingredient! Your wine will taste different at one month and three months and six months and a year. You'll want to make enough to sample at different time intervals. Sorry, not a hobby for the impatient.

Out of curiosity, how many wines have you made?

 

[Rice_Guy]

A gallon is a common size many of us have worked with. My spin on a gallon is to do 4 liters and the rack into a 3.78 liter/ gallon. This sometimes still results in space for marvels or LDPE rods.
For a small batch to work well you need to find a series of similar containers to rack down into. A possible third racking could be a bag in box since size can be shined to fit. A limit is you need to be extra careful racking that off it’s lees.

 

[alurpal]

Fruit? The more the better. Shoot for 100% fruit or juice.

This is kind of what my intuition tells me, yet so many recipes call for 3-6lbs which are hardly 100% juice.

 

[BigDaveK]

This is kind of what my intuition tells me, yet so many recipes call for 3-6lbs which are hardly 100% juice.

I think most of us probably started by following recipes. Live and learn. More fruit is one of the easiest ways to go from "Mm, that's good" to "Oh, wow".

 

[winemaker81]

I agree that batches smaller than 1 US gallon / 4 liters are problematic. If you're making small batches, look for sources of split (375 ml) bottles, as a gallon will give you 10 bottles, but only 5 full size bottles.

Important -- when planning a batch, allow for fruit/flower solids AND sediment -- you'll lose more volume than you expect.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Important -- when planning a batch, allow for fruit/flower solids AND sediment -- you'll lose more volume than you expect.

@alurpal In the ideal world I would start at 4 liters under air lock > rack down to a 3.25 liter to get off gross lees (possibly 3.5 liter) > rack down to a 3 liter. I don’t know where to find these sizes.
It works pretty well racking a seven gallon into a six gallon secondary.

 

[winemaker81]

@alurpal In the ideal world I would start at 4 liters under air lock > rack down to a 3.25 liter to get off gross lees (possibly 3.5 liter) > rack down to a 3 liter. I don’t know where to find these sizes.
It works pretty well racking a seven gallon into a six gallon secondary.

MANY years ago Gallo sold wine in 2 and 3 liter jugs. I used to have a bunch, but eliminated them at some point, probably when moving out of NY. I've looked, and Gallo is not selling in those sizes.

FYI -- Carlo Rossi sells decent jug wine in 4 liter jugs. When I need cooking wine OR jugs, I buy Paisano or Burgundy (red) or Chablis (white), and transfer into five 750 ml screwcap + one 375 ml screwcap bottles, and the jug goes into the winery. Their wines are plonk, basic wine -- no exceptional qualities and no serious flaws. They are great for cooking, and I don't mind sipping a small glass while cooking.

 

[hounddawg]

my first re-batch after better then 30 years was 36 gallon finish,,,, blackberry,,, strawberry, apple pear bleand, i still ferment from 10 gallon to 50 gallon, same time, same work, MORE OR LESS,,, if really good set for long time, next time i bottle i got better than 60 gallons to bottle, banana,, strawberry, pear, peach,
apple, skitter pee port, ECT, i did say better than 60 gallon, here we have a silly 100 gallon limit per year
Dawg

 

[hounddawg]

I think most of us probably started by following recipes. Live and learn. More fruit is one of the easiest ways to go from "Mm, that's good" to "Oh, wow".

my youngest memories are dirty barns, old plastic and some not,,,,, siting under plywood and cloth,
honestly I've no clue how they did it 60 years ago, but i've drank great wine, and other stuff, as a matter of fact that's why I don't brew beer, around here everybody's tasted like yeast, you did learn whom to help make wine though,
Dawg

 

[BernardSmith]

One gallon, five gallons, or a half gallon, it’s the same amount of work. The only difference is how long it takes to rack X amount of liquid into a receiving vessel.

One gallon is about the smallest amount I’d want to experiment with. Prefer to experiment with five or six gallons. Allows for more choices (container sizes) when racking.

Very true, the amount of effort to make 5 or 6 gallons is about the same as it is to make a single gallon, but it's always much easier to swallow a gallon of crappy wine than it is to drink 6 gallons of the same. Also the cost of producing 6 gallons of a heather honey mead is astronomical compared to making a single gallon, and if your recipe is screwy or your technique needs improving a gallon and half of heather honey is wasted when you could have wasted 3 lbs... And sure, if you are a commercial brewer or wine maker making 5,000 or 50,000 gallon batches, five gallons is nothing. If however, you need to decide whether to buy 3 lbs of honey or a botte of commercially made wine, the cost/benefit ratios are very different.

 

[vinny]

I’m a new wine maker (previous hobbyist beer maker) and I love the theory behind wine and I’m an experimenter at heart.

Step with caution. This bog is deep and easy to get lost in.

In my first year I racked off 32 wines for over 90 gallons.

@BigDaveK made 63 different wined in his first year, I think.

Gallons are great for experiments, but take good notes. It is disappointing when they are good and there are only 5 bottles.

 

[vinny]

I have done a lot of experimenting. At the very beginning I wanted to understand everything. I made all kinds of changes and threw things together haphazard just to see the results. The biggest things that will change your results are quality ingredients, the ratio of dilution, yeast choice (this can effect the entire profile with the esters they produce and the flavours they enhance, mouth feel etc.) And time, number 1. Raisins or banana are good additives for mouth feel and body. Acidity is important for balance. Too much you need to add sugar to compensate, not enough and the wine falls flat.

A surprisingly small amount of sugar can make a wine much more fruit forward and notable without making it a sweet wine. Backsweetening can make for interesting changes.

I got lost in the little things, and highly recommend to focus on gallon batches that taste good. When you have a baseline from a good batch make an adjustment to the next batch.

I get the enthusiasm 100%, but patience is the best teacher we have. The little things don't make the difference you might expect, and the side by side experiments I have done, 3 carrot wines All different methods, tend to disappoint in results vs effort over aiming to make the best wine possible with what you have.

But of course that's just my $.02, don't let me talk you outta any fun, 'cause this hobby is a ton of fun.

 

[hounddawg]

Step with caution. This bog is deep and easy to get lost in.

In my first year I racked off 32 wines for over 90 gallons.

@BigDaveK made 63 different wined in his first year, I think.

Gallons are great for experiments, but take good notes. It is disappointing when they are good and there are only 5 bottles.

jeeze,,, just get a few 55 gallon drums, lie like me saying oh i only do a few, oops, anyway you get the ideal..... lol
Dawg

 

[BigDaveK]

The little things don't make the difference you might expect, and the side by side experiments I have done, 3 carrot wines All different methods, tend to disappoint in results vs effort over aiming to make the best wine possible with what you have.

I noticed the same with my butternut squash wine. Roasting released an incredible amount of flavor for the table but it didn't carry over to the wine. But we had to try, didn't we? Now we know!
I have a couple side by side batches in the near future and the main difference will be yeast strain. Still a lot to learn there.

@BigDaveK made 63 different wined in his first year, I think.

63!? That's crazy! What kind of person makes...oh, wait...I'M BigDaveK. Uh, never mind.

(It was 75. Ssssshhh, don't tell anyone.)

 

[hounddawg]

I noticed the same with my butternut squash wine. Roasting released an incredible amount of flavor for the table but it didn't carry over to the wine. But we had to try, didn't we? Now we know!
I have a couple side by side batches in the near future and the main difference will be yeast strain. Still a lot to learn there.


63!? That's crazy! What kind of person makes...oh, wait...I'M BigDaveK. Uh, never mind.

(It was 75. Ssssshhh, don't tell anyone.)

like i said lie,,,,,,
Dawg,,
beats jail,,,,