Some vines dead on top half

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nanobrau

Junior
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I’m in the California Bay Area. Trying to diagnose, although I suspect this is weather related. We’ve had way more rain in spring than any other year in the last decade.

The top half of some of my vines appear dead. The lower half is alive but stunted. Pictured is my tempranillo, but I have 2 pinot noirs in similar condition. Gewurztraminer and cabernet sauvignon in similar lighting and watering conditions are growing normally with way more foliage.

It’s a bummer seeing them like this so early in the year. I don’t think I’ll get any crop out of them at this rate.

Any ideas? Definitely want to try and mitigate this in the future.
 

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I’m in the California Bay Area. Trying to diagnose, although I suspect this is weather related. We’ve had way more rain in spring than any other year in the last decade.

The top half of some of my vines appear dead. The lower half is alive but stunted. Pictured is my tempranillo, but I have 2 pinot noirs in similar condition. Gewurztraminer and cabernet sauvignon in similar lighting and watering conditions are growing normally with way more foliage.

It’s a bummer seeing them like this so early in the year. I don’t think I’ll get any crop out of them at this rate.

Any ideas? Definitely want to try and mitigate this in the future.
I've got a tempranillo that was in a wet spot. It was super slow to start 1 wet year and I thought it was dead. It mostly recovered and has been doing fine. I rerouted some gutters to reduce water at the location and dug a post hole a few ft away and didn't fill it with anything (hoping it would dry out the soil faster and get a little air in - a poor man's wick drain).

I've got clayey soils.

It's been super wet this year and the vine is doing pretty good so I think it is working.

For reference I've got 10 tempranillos and only the one in the wet spot had the problem.
 
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I also have very clayey soil. Good to hear you’re having a similar experience.

Hopefully they will improve with more time. And I can shut off the drip line for a bit. Maybe that will help.
 
I was doing some reading about viticulture unrelated to my issue here and I came across "apical dominance". It dawned on me that the reason the top half of the vines die is because those buds burst first. Any adverse weather will impact those the most, hence why the lower half appears healthier.

This gave me an idea of having a sacrificial cane in areas with unpredictable weather. Sudden cold snaps or heat waves early in the growing season could be combatted by having a top cane that is later cut off if those buds are negatively affected. If not, well then you just have one extra cane.
 
I’m in the California Bay Area. Trying to diagnose, although I suspect this is weather related. We’ve had way more rain in spring than any other year in the last decade.

The top half of some of my vines appear dead. The lower half is alive but stunted. Pictured is my tempranillo, but I have 2 pinot noirs in similar condition. Gewurztraminer and cabernet sauvignon in similar lighting and watering conditions are growing normally with way more foliage.

It’s a bummer seeing them like this so early in the year. I don’t think I’ll get any crop out of them at this rate.

Any ideas? Definitely want to try and mitigate this in the future.
It may just be my eyes, but that cane with the dead leaves looks to be 2 seasons old. Is that second year or 3rd year wood those upper buds that died came out of? In other words, did that vertical cane that is tied up to the top wire grow in the 2021 season or 2022?
 
Great, ok, i just wanted to be sure as the wood looks aged. This seems like a fairly young vine. The most significant issue I see isn't as much the growth that died but the fact that only a few of those buds in that long vertical cane (and the one that splits to the right) actually popped in the spring and grew at all. There are various reasons why buds may fail to break in second year canes, but my understanding is that most of the time it's because the leaves on that cane in its first year weren't able to store enough carbohydrates before leaf fall when the vine goes dormant. The primary factors which affect that are; sun exposure, frost exposure, water availability, nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium levels.

If you can provide a clearer picture of what happened in the 2022 season we may be able to discern what went wrong. While overwatering can be an issue that causes growth to die after bud break, the rain we've had in CA (where I'm also located) wouldn't be enough to cause that on its own unless your soil just holds water like a sponge and never dries out.

Can you clarify the following:
1. In 2022 what fertilizer did you give this plant (if any) and how often?
2. From 2022 to now what was your watering schedule and how much each tike you watered?
3. In 2022 what month did the leaves on this vine dry up and fall off?
4. In 2022 did you leave any fruit on this vine to harvest or did you drop it all in the spring?
5. What year did you plant this vine?
6. In 2023 what fertilizer have you applied, how much, how often, and what month?
7. In 2023 in what month did the buds first break for this vine?
8. In the winter of 2022 - 2023 did you have any snow or frost?
9. In 2023 were there any nights below freezing in your area after bud break?
 
1. One dressing of compost in late spring.
2. Probably over watered. I have a drip line running every other day. This is due to a limitation in my drip line setup where the same line feeds some plants that need water more often. I just recently moved the drip line a foot further from the vines to help reduce the water a bit.
3. Unsure, but sometime after September.
4. Left 2 small clusters.
5. 2020
6. One dressing of compost around April.
7. IIRC, late March.
8. No snow or frost.
9. No.

My soil is very clay heavy.

And as a small update, 1 of my 2 pinots is now toast. The lower half is almost completely dead with only one bud surviving that is ~1" long. I could probably save this one, but I'm considering replacing it with something else depending on how it does this season goes.
 
1. One dressing of compost in late spring.
2. Probably over watered. I have a drip line running every other day. This is due to a limitation in my drip line setup where the same line feeds some plants that need water more often. I just recently moved the drip line a foot further from the vines to help reduce the water a bit.
3. Unsure, but sometime after September.
4. Left 2 small clusters.
5. 2020
6. One dressing of compost around April.
7. IIRC, late March.
8. No snow or frost.
9. No.

My soil is very clay heavy.

And as a small update, 1 of my 2 pinots is now toast. The lower half is almost completely dead with only one bud surviving that is ~1" long. I could probably save this one, but I'm considering replacing it with something else depending on how it does this season goes.

Thanks that helps a lot.

Here are the issue I'm seeing based on your Reponses:
1. Grapes typically need to be deep watered and then allowed to dry out for a few days. I personally water mine twice a week for 30 minutes with 2 gallon / per hour drip buttons, once on Monday morning and once on Friday morning. I have dedicated valves for my vines as they have different watering requirements than everything else in the yard. Every other day is definitely too much water, then if you combine that with the heavy rainfall we had this year I can see how that would hinder growth. Symptoms of overwatering can appear similar to other nutrient deficiencies, but you will generally see all the leaves go limp and then dry out all at once. This is likely the main issue here.
2. I can't really give you much direction on the compost as it's hard to know how much of each nutrient is provided by it. Once thing I will say that looks wrong is that you are fertilizing once per year in the spring. Typically, you should fertilize once in the winter after all vines have dripped their leaves and gone dormant, then fertilize again in the spring after fruit set (when the berries reach about 1/4" in size). That said, I'm primarily talking about Nitrogen, but in terms Potassium and Phosphorus you can fertilize pre bud-break and post-harvest. This is not a hard-and-fast rule though, you have to watch your vines, assess what they may need and decide when the timing is right based on proximity to verasion, harvest and dormancy.
3. As a general rule, you shouldn't leave grape clusters on a vine until it's 4th season, assuming it has shown sufficient vigor. Any clusters that remain on the vine in the first 3 seasons will waste valuable energy that the plant should be using on root and vegetative growth. Two clusters in the 3rd season isn't that bad, but it is a contributing factor as to why the plant may not have had sufficient carbohydrate reserves to break all those buds on the bare canes.

Now the bad news. All those buds that never popped on the upper cane are dead. It is very unlikely they will ever generate any lateral shoots in the coming years. Assuming the trunk isn't already dead wood on the inside, if you left it there it may eventually create some basal buds that would turn into laterals, but that would be many years off and a huge waste of time to wait for that.

What I would do if I were in your position is:
1. put in a dedicated irrigation valve asap with a dedicated drip line for your grape vines.
2. buy a soil moisture meter like the following one: https://www.amazon.com/Moisture-Hyg...cphy=9031508&hvtargid=pla-1146688428954&psc=1
3. adjust the drip line to water twice a week and monitor the soil on the day before the drip line would come on. If the soil is fairly dried out then you're good, if it's still wet then maybe twice a week is too much for your soil / climate.
4. If any fruit happens to grow on these young vines this year, break the clusters off at first sign as they just don't have the health to sustain fruit and you want to direct all that energy to getting the right structure and carbohydrate reserves for next season.
5. in February 2024 (before bud break) go out there and cut off all of that wood on that main trunk with all the dead buds down to a few nodes above the currently growing laterals. For this season your harvest is definitely a lost cause, but, if you take care of my prior 3 suggestions then hopefully all that new growth that's coming out of the ground will give you some long and thick enough options to start a new trunk. If they do, choose the best one and cut it off a few buds above that waist-height wire you have there. You're going to need to start working on a proper cordon structure to facilitate the weight of the fruit and spacing out the spur positions for proper airflow. Spur positions on a lateral cordon should be spaced out a fist-width apart. That 6' tall vertical cane structure you have going on now isn't going to work out very well in the future, so I'd work my way out of that going forward. To be clear, this will set you back at minimum 2 seasons to be able to get fruit from this vine.
6. If you are able to establish a new trunk next year, I'd snap off any fruit clusters before bloom for the 2024 season. Then if the vine is healthy and vigorous in the spring of 2025 and the cordon is established, I'd snap off all but one cluster per shoot (you should have 2 shoots per spur position if you prune a 2 bud spur). Then in 2026 you can go up to 2 clusters per shoot.

Lastly, I've learned over many years of trial and error that growing grapes (especially quality grapes for winemaking) is hard work. It's not a passive process and requires a ton of patience and decision making. Some of the hardest decisions to make are the one's where you sacrifice years of growth to better position your vines for what they will be years from now. Specifically, I know it's a tall order to cut off all that trunk, but if you make the sacrifice now and get your watering / nutrients right, you will be way better off a few years from now.
 
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I really appreciate your response. Thank you for the tips.

Regarding the funny structure, I got it in my head from somewhere online that a 4-arm kniffen would both produce well and look great. I've since changed my opinion on this since apical dominance makes the fruit production inconsistent, and I was considering doing only 1 or 2 cordons in a more typical manner. You've pretty much cemented in my mind that this is the right way forward.

It's a bummer that I'll lose 2 years on this, but that's just how growing grapes goes. I was nervous to enter this hobby when I started, but it's been 4 years since my first planting already and it seems like time just flies.

Now regarding fertilizer, do I stop after the vine is well established after a few years? I keep reading that grape vines don't need fertilizer, and that excess nitrogen can seriously harm cluster production.
 
My wet vine event was several years ago. More of the vine came back than I expected.

When I went to trim the "dead" pieces off I noticed some were still green on the inside. Some of the ones that were still green did come back. It just took a while.

As for vine structure, do your thing. If your focus is less on production and more on aesthetics do what you like. My vines have been very forgiving to my random approach to pruning and training.

Plus, it is important to understand that the "typical" vineyard is set up to balance ease of work and production.

My vines production is good but maintenance and harvest is much more difficult than "typical" vineyards due to the personal aesthetic choices I have made in trellising/training.

Edit:

I looked back at photos - I couldn't tell if my shoots died like yours or if they never emerged. I have one photo from late winter with no growth and the next photo in late may shows a the vine looks like yours with a couple of low shoots but nothing above them. Although it is obvious that I had cut off some of the higher old growth between the 2 pictures. My event was in 2020, last year I probably harvested 20lbs of grapes from that vine and this year looks like 20 - 30 lbs. (The current vine is climbing the telephone pole up to about 15' and probably has over 100sf of "canopy".
 
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I really appreciate your response. Thank you for the tips.

Regarding the funny structure, I got it in my head from somewhere online that a 4-arm kniffen would both produce well and look great. I've since changed my opinion on this since apical dominance makes the fruit production inconsistent, and I was considering doing only 1 or 2 cordons in a more typical manner. You've pretty much cemented in my mind that this is the right way forward.

It's a bummer that I'll lose 2 years on this, but that's just how growing grapes goes. I was nervous to enter this hobby when I started, but it's been 4 years since my first planting already and it seems like time just flies.

Now regarding fertilizer, do I stop after the vine is well established after a few years? I keep reading that grape vines don't need fertilizer, and that excess nitrogen can seriously harm cluster production.

I googled 4 arm Kniffen and it looks like you could still pull that off with some patience. This is a great illustration of how you can approach this:

https://pubs.nmsu.edu/_h/H303/
So essentially, your goals for the coming seasons are as follows:
2023 Growing season - allow the currently green lower shoots to grow as long as possible.

2024 Pruning - prune off all but the largest cane that grew past that mid-level wire. Tie the cane straight up on that mid wire and cut off the cane about 4 buds above the wire. (personally, I carefully nip off the lower buds on the trunk below the wire when doing my dormant pruning, leaving only the top 4 to 6 buds, however, you can instead just pull off those suckers when you see them break to ensure that all of the 2024 growing season is spent growing the top 4 to six buds into laterals)

2025 Pruning - choose the best 3 canes, one that reaches up to the top wire, one that extends left on the mid wire and one that extends right on the mid wire. Tie each cane to the wire. Cut off all but 4 to 6 buds at the top wire and nip off the buds between the middle and top wire on the vertical cane. Cut off the ends of the left and right cane at the post or halfway to the neighboring vine. Typically, this is a span of about 4' on each side.

2026 Pruning - Spur prune the horizontal cordons on the mid-wire. Choose the 2 best canes on the top wire to extend out left and right, tying them to the top wire and cutting them off at 4' or so (same as the mid-wire horizontal canes).

2027 Pruning - spur prune all 4 horizontal arms.

In the plan above, you will get grapes from the first 2 horizontal cordons in the summer of 2025 then you'll get grapes from the top wire cordons in the summer of 2026.

Try not to get discouraged, there will be many challenges ahead, including in the winemaking process which is a whole other animal. Just stay determined and patient.

Personally, I'm a bit hesitant to weigh in on fertilizer with any level of certainty. The reason being, I think just this year I've finally figured out what my grapes need. But it's circumstantial depending on the varietals, the soil, the weather in your area, etc... All I can really advise is to tell you what I do and allow you to take from that information what you will. All the serious viticulturalists take Petiole and Soil samples, have them sent to a lab and make nutrient decisions based on the results. I personally, have yet to do any of that. Initially, I fed my vines Two Cups of 5-5-2 Dr Earth fruit tree fertilizer each spring before bud break for the first few years as I didn't know any better and that's what the nursery staff advised me to do. The vines all grew fine, but not exceptionally vigorously. Then when I started getting yields of grapes several years in, I started getting a lot of problems. This included the late summer death of many of my vines. It was then I started digging a lot on the internet and asking the local vineyards where possible.

What I've now arrived at is as follows:

Before Bud Break (March to May):
1 tbsp Potash 0-0-60
1/4 lb. Triple Super Phosphate 0-46-0

After Fruit Set (When berries reach 1/4" in size):
1/4 lb. Calcium Nitrate 15.5-0-0

Post Harvest (After you harvest all fruit):
1 tbsp Potash 0-0-60
1/4 lb. Triple Super Phosphate 0-46-0

Post Hybernation (After the vine drops all its leaves):
1/4 lb. Calcium Nitrate 15.5-0-0

This plan appears to be working well as my vines are quite healthy, with plentiful large clusters and dark green leaves so far. That said, I am seeing some of the basal leaves showing some yellow chlorosis now that they're approaching verasion, which I'm not entirely sure if that's a magnesium issue or not, but it has happened every year and I've still gotten a yield.

My understanding is that you should always fertilize your vines if you are harvesting their fruit. I believe this comes from the idea that in the wild, the fruit falls off and breaks down in the soil around the vine every year, which allows the vine to maintain a cycle of its own nutrients. But when we take all that fruit off the vine each harvest, we're breaking that cycle. I think in story above is testament to that idea, given that my vines were undernourished with my old fertilization plan once I started taking the fruit, plus the fact that fruit production is very taxing on the vine, so it requires more energy to stay healthy when producing a yield.
 
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