sorbate / no-sorbate experiment

[winemaker81]

In March 2022 I started an Elderberry wine using Vintner's Best Elderberry concentrate extended to 7 US gallons with 1 liter each red and white grape concentrate.

Most of the wine was bottled in October 2022, stabilized with sorbate + K-meta and backsweetened. I reserved 4 liters to age longer, with the intention of bottling without sorbate. Today we bottled.

Taste testing was interesting. The non-sorbate wine is quite good on its own with no backsweetening, but like most fruit wines it benefits from a bit of sugar. We opened a bottle of the last fall's bottling to compare, as we wanted to backsweeten to the same approximate level.

That didn't go as planned, as the non-sorbate wine has a stronger nose and lingering aftertaste. We ended up backsweetening to a lesser degree, as it's what the wine called for. My mantra when backsweetening is to reach the point where it needs just a bit more, then stop. We did that.

We didn't pick up any off aromas or flavors in the sorbate wine. @Rice_Guy has stated that sorbate breaks down and affects the flavor, and I believe it. But we didn't pick up anything this time.

At the USA Thanksgiving my younger son + DIL will be visiting, and we will taste test the two versions. I made the Elderberry primarily as my DIL and her mom love elderberry, so including them in the taste test should be fun.

I'll update this thread after the taste test.

 

[winemaker81]

In addition to the bottling, we topped barrels yesterday. The Tempranillo was a surprise.

We always taste (quality control, ya know!), and the differences between the barrel sample and the topup wine are remarkable. The topup is fruitier, which makes sense, as the barrel has 2 oz Hungarian medium toast cubes (54 liter barrel is long since neutral) which reduces the fruitiness.

The wine is tannic -- not puckering to the point of face implosion, but significantly noticeable. We'll bottle in November and expect this wine to need at least a year in the bottle.

Nope -- with the barrel sample the tannin is perceptible along the sides of the tongue, while with the unoaked topup, the perception is more in the gums. I assume the difference is the barrel sample also contains oak tannin from the cubes.

There are many types of tannin, and this illustrates a difference between grape and oak tannin.

Note -- we fermented 8 lugs Tempranillo with 8 cups medium toast American shredded oak, but the topup carboy and 4 liter jugs have no aging oak.

 

[Shurt1073]

Sounds like you had a great day!

You didn't say which one you preferred?

 

[winemaker81]

With the Elderberry, it's too soon to tell. The non-sorbate has a brighter flavor, but that may be the new sugar addition. Once it melds, we'll be able to make a good comparison.

However, my gut feel at this point is that the sorbate wine will not exhibit any flaws from the sorbate, but will exhibit muted aroma and taste in comparison to the non-sorbate wine.

Next time I open them, we'll see how accurate my prediction is.

If this works the way I expect, when backsweetening I'll probably bulk age 9 months and skip the sorbate. Sorbate will only be used for wines I decided to bulk age less time, e.g., whites and light fruits. I don't backsweeten much, so no telling when I'll test this again.

Regarding the Tempranillo, we had about 2/3 of a 375 ml bottle leftover from topup, which I did not consider worth saving. Nope, I didn't throw it out; rather, I drank it after work yesterday. This one needs oak, as it's too fruity for my likes. Not that I don't like fruity reds, but it's not right for this one (IMO). It needs oak, and the barrel wine is better.

At this time we have 54 liters in barrel, 12 liters in a carboy, and two 4 liter jugs. At bottling time (November) we'll have 66-68 liters when combined. Adding the unoaked red to the barrel will be a good choice, as it will bring fruit to a tannic red.

We also have ~70 liters of Rhone blend (Mourvèdre, Petite Sirah, Syrah) made from 1 lug each of the aforementioned grapes, fermented separately in a 14 Day ferment, then pressed together, and aged with 3 oz Hungarian oak cubges. This is is heavy and pure ink. Most of this will be blended into a Grenache, but we'll probably have some left over and will bench test adding some to the Tempranillo.

 

[Shurt1073]

You mention oak or lack of oak in the Tempranillo, and the Rhone blend ..... I'll be asking more oak questions for end of the year wine or next years wine. You have a lot of wine and November will be so much fun! I hope you are taking pictures to look back on this someday.

I still think the sorbate experiment is interesting. Guess I'll continue to use sorbate to bottle within' 3-9 months to free up space for more winemaking.

 

[winemaker81]

You mention oak or lack of oak in the Tempranillo, and the Rhone blend ..... I'll be asking more oak questions for end of the year wine or next years wine. You have a lot of wine and November will be so much fun! I hope you are taking pictures to look back on this someday.

Gotta keep track of what you're doing. The neutral barrels have oak cubes added, and I often add cubes to carboys, but it's handy to have unoaked wine to add in to balance any overage of oak flavoring.

I still think the sorbate experiment is interesting. Guess I'll continue to use sorbate to bottle within' 3-9 months to free up space for more winemaking.

Buy more carboys ......

 

[winemaker81]

Last week I visited family in NY and took a couple bottles of the Elderberry with me, with and without sorbate. The taste test was surprising:

I got a renewed fermentation in the bottle. It wasn't enough to budge the cork, but it certainly demonstrated carbonation in the glass.



The wine was started 14 March 2022, and most was stabilized (sorbate/K-meta), backsweetened, and bottled on 06 October 2022.

On 23 April 2023 I backsweetened, added K-meta, and bottled the remaining 4 liters -- no sorbate. This was 13+ months after starting, and and 11.5 months after the start of bulk aging. I'm honestly surprised I got a renewed fermentation in the bottle.

The no-sorbate wine is bone dry and sharp tasting. We added a few drops of honey to each glass, stirred, and it is fine.

I will try this experiment again in the future, when making a wine I backsweeten.

 

[Shurt1073]

So, will you use sorbate from now on?

 

[winemaker81]

So, will you use sorbate from now on?

I'm surprised it didn't work I'll try the experiment again -- this time I'll unbottle 1 bottle each of batches that are over a year old, wines I'd not normally backsweeten. Add sugar, a teaspoon or two, recork, and let them set for 3 months.

I can't see that I did anything wrong, as the experiment setup is simple -- bulk age wine 12+ months, add sugar, bottle, wait 3 months, taste.

My expectation is that I'll resume using sorbate, unless I can figure out why the Elderberry fermented. I have two hypothesis:

1) The yeast didn't die of starvation.

2) There is enough yeast in the air in my winery to inoculate the wine. I 'spose that is possible, as I've been making wine in this space for 20 years, but I had no active fermentation going since last October, and I bottled in April, about 6 months.

 

[BigDaveK]

In April of '22 I did a no yeast experiment. Enclosed room used for multiple batches. Checked my notes - 6 day primary going from 1.084 to 1.010, finished in secondary at .990.

Which leads to an interesting thought - what if what's in the air has a high kill factor but you inoculate with a neutral or sensitive yeast?

 

[winemaker81]

In April of '22 I did a no yeast experiment. Enclosed room used for multiple batches. Checked my notes - 6 day primary going from 1.084 to 1.010, finished in secondary at .990.

Which leads to an interesting thought - what if what's in the air has a high kill factor but you inoculate with a neutral or sensitive yeast?

This makes sense.

If the air yeast gets the opportunity, I expect it will win.

 

[Bmd2k1]

Still looking to "naturally" carb up a vino...

Once you've hit it with Sorbate/Kmeta & bulk aged......any chance a yeast starter added at bottling time to each bottle or the entire batch....stands a chance of working?

Cheers!

 

[winemaker81]

Still looking to "naturally" carb up a vino...

Once you've hit it with Sorbate/Kmeta & bulk aged......any chance a yeast starter added at bottling time to each bottle or the entire batch....stands a chance of working?

Sorbate doesn't make it impossible for yeast to reproduce, but a proper dosage makes it very difficult. Once you've added sorbate, it's probably a waste of resources to try to restart a fermentation.

If you want to restart the ferment to carbonate a wine, skip the sorbate.

Last year I tried sparkling 4 liters of Chardonnay, adding sugar and bottling in champagne bottles 4 months after starting. While the yeast should keep going at that point, it may make sense to add a fresh starter.

In my case the sparkle was very light as I used the dosage for 19 liters of beer (1/2 to 3/4 cup sugar), whereas I later learned that wine takes 2 to 3 times as much sugar to sparkle well. Yes, I made the mistake of applying my knowledge of beer making to winemaking ....

 

[Rice_Guy]

Still looking to "naturally" carb up a vino...

Once you've hit it with Sorbate/Kmeta & bulk aged......any chance a yeast starter added at bottling time to each bottle or the entire batch....stands a chance of working?

Cheers!

On a percentage risk basis, NO, ,,, natural carbonation will not work after treating with potassium sorbate.

Ethyl sorbate (bubble gum flavor) is produced over year or two year periods. It really isn’t much of a risk for wines that you drink right away.