Starting a new vineyard

[Nebbiolo020]

I suggest you order soon because vines are now in short supply. I could not get the rootstock or varieties I wanted back in September. Time have changed! In 2019 I put in my vine order in late January and had everything available. I'm preordering for 2023. Maybe Wonderful Nurseries is doing better.

I have no issues ordering from major vine growers, I put in a order for more vines for next year.

 

[VinesnBines]

I have no issues ordering from major vine growers, I put in a order for more vines for next year.

Who are you ordering from? I'm on the East Coast and use Double A. They have been fantastic but inundated with orders. Fortunately they realize the problem and have encouraged customers to pre-order for 2023 and beyond. They are the major producer on the East Coast. When they say vines will be shipped on Monday and arrive on Wednesday, they are right on the money.

 

[GSMChris]

My order went in yesterday - just waiting on confirmation... I'll post specifics once confirmed.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Who are you ordering from? I'm on the East Coast and use Double A. They have been fantastic but inundated with orders. Fortunately they realize the problem and have encouraged customers to pre-order for 2023 and beyond. They are the major producer on the East Coast. When they say vines will be shipped on Monday and arrive on Wednesday, they are right on the money.

I’m west coast

 

[GSMChris]

So I officially completed my order just now, sending off the down payment and signed contracts.

My order was:

Dormant Plants:
200 Primitivo 3.1 Clone on 1103P rootstock (note Primitivo is genetically the same as Zinfandel)
125 Grenache - 362.1 Clone on 3309C rootstock
75 Mourvedre - 1069.1 Clone on 3309C rootstock
105 Syrah - 479 Clone on 3309C rootstock

Green Plants (because I bought all they had of the dormant)
20 Syrah - 479 Clone on 3309C rootstock

Boy are there a lot of choices to make between rootstocks and clones. The one you might be wondering about - the Primitivo/Zin was had to be on a different rootstock as it wasn't available on 3309 and this was my best remaining choice.

Now back to watching soil dry. We have had just over 9 inches of rain since we ripped November 13th - and as a result you can't even walk on the soil let alone drive a tractor on it. The next two weeks are supposed to be better so I am hoping to be able to till in lime and compost sometime during this window of time.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

So I officially completed my order just now, sending off the down payment and signed contracts.

My order was:

Dormant Plants:
200 Primitivo 3.1 Clone on 1103P rootstock (note Primitivo is genetically the same as Zinfandel)
125 Grenache - 362.1 Clone on 3309C rootstock
75 Mourvedre - 1069.1 Clone on 3309C rootstock
105 Syrah - 479 Clone on 3309C rootstock

Green Plants (because I bought all they had of the dormant)
20 Syrah - 479 Clone on 3309C rootstock

Boy are there a lot of choices to make between rootstocks and clones. The one you might be wondering about - the Primitivo/Zin was had to be on a different rootstock as it wasn't available on 3309 and this was my best remaining choice.

Now back to watching soil dry. We have had just over 9 inches of rain since we ripped November 13th - and as a result you can't even walk on the soil let alone drive a tractor on it. The next two weeks are supposed to be better so I am hoping to be able to till in lime and compost sometime during this window of time.

1103 p will grow in any soil and is heavily resistant to drought. Great general purpose rootstock. Also primitivo and zin are genetically the same but the characteristics of primitivo are not the same wines made from primitivo actually tend to be less intense and less powerful than Zinfandel think of it as a weaker clone of Zinfandel with less tannins and acidity and etc.

I consider primitivo to be the lesser clone.

 

[Joe B.]

I have 1103P rootstock and it has very high vigor with my soil conditions and I now only water to protect the fruit from heat spells after veraison and after harvest so I am almost dry farming it. The 3309C I have is a moderate grower but will need more water than the 1103P. I have 3309C on some Grenache and at my site it really is a good match. I would recommend getting local advice on spacing of the 1103P with the clone you have and your soil type. I also grow Zin and love it, but it ripens unevenly and some years rot is a real issue which has not been with any of my other varieties. I don't grow Primitivo but know those who do and they don't have the rot problems Zin can present and the bunches ripen more evenly. I also prefer Zin over Primitivo but have tasted some very nice and balanced wines made from the grape when it is not dominated by high alcohols. With the different varieties you have you also will have good options for blending.

 

[ibglowin]

California thanks you for bringing the rain!

Now back to watching soil dry. We have had just over 9 inches of rain since we ripped November 13th - and as a result you can't even walk on the soil let alone drive a tractor on it.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

I have 1103P rootstock and it has very high vigor with my soil conditions and I now only water to protect the fruit from heat spells after veraison and after harvest so I am almost dry farming it. The 3309C I have is a moderate grower but will need more water than the 1103P. I have 3309C on some Grenache and at my site it really is a good match. I would recommend getting local advice on spacing of the 1103P with the clone you have and your soil type. I also grow Zin and love it, but it ripens unevenly and some years rot is a real issue which has not been with any of my other varieties. I don't grow Primitivo but know those who do and they don't have the rot problems Zin can present and the bunches ripen more evenly. I also prefer Zin over Primitivo but have tasted some very nice and balanced wines made from the grape when it is not dominated by high alcohols. With the different varieties you have you also will have good options for blending.

Yeah, 1103p will have deep roots, and is prone to growing lots of little shoots that need to be trimmed and is very vigorous anything grown on it tends to produce a lot of vegetation and be quite vigorous so you will need to control yield to get quality wine. I have vines planted on 1103p that are 3 feet between vine and 6 feet between rows and that forces them to compete and helps slow down excessive vegetation.

I have a lot of experience working with Zinfandel, particularly old vine Zinfandel, as well as Syrah, Grenache,Mourvèdre,Roussane,Marsanne and Grenache blanc.
Zin will depending on the clone ripen unevenly and that’s okay it helps to balance the acidity as Zinfandel tends to be lower in acid, you will also get raisins with Zinfandel which help to boost the sugar as when you do a soak prior to fermentation Zinfandel can see a increase of 2-3 brix regularly due to sugars leeching out of the raisins. Keep this in mind when harvesting as if you pick with too high a brix you can get a stuck fermentation due to alcohol. Just some advice for working with Zinfandel. You will get better wines including 50% raisins in your total fruit volume, Zinfandel also benefits from a cold soak because the skins are very thin and don’t contribute a lot of color so you need to soak to get good color.

 

[GSMChris]

California thanks you for bringing the rain!

If I had only known this was all it would take!

The East coasters are probably laughing about nine inches of rain as being a problem… but our average annual rainfall is 18 inches - and that’s normally in Jan Feb and March. So getting half of the annual rainfall in November and December is really odd.

I took a walk yesterday around the vineyard - the ripped soil is starting to dry up - at least the top inch or two. The good news is that there weren’t any muddy streaks leaving the vineyard - so no runoff.

The ground around the vineyard is still a thin sheet of water from the uphill neighbors. That top layer is just solid baked hardpan and the water just runs along, not soaking in. At some point, I may put in a drain pipe to intercept that water and move it away from the vineyard.

I hope you all have a great New Years Day!

 

[GSMChris]

Yeah, 1103p will have deep roots, and is prone to growing lots of little shoots that need to be trimmed and is very vigorous anything grown on it tends to produce a lot of vegetation and be quite vigorous so you will need to control yield to get quality wine. I have vines planted on 1103p that are 3 feet between vine and 6 feet between rows and that forces them to compete and helps slow down excessive vegetation.

Re rootstock - 1103P‘s vigor was one of my concerns with using it - that and it’s not a perfect match for low ph soil. I’m amending with lime but you never know exactly where the ph will end up. The 3309 does better with the low ph soil and has less vigor - so was my first choice. More water isn’t much of an issue - I’ve got a very strong well and solar panels so I can pretty much water as needed.

I’m planning to plant with 12 foot aisles and 6 feet between vines. I will have to play with vine spacing a bit as each row is a different length. The West side end posts will be square to the fence but the east side end posts will be at a diagonal parallel to the East fence as my lot is really far from square. So the uphill rows (south side) will be about 170 feet long and the northern most rows about 120 feet. The Zin/primitivo vines will be on the South side - so in the longer rows. when the time comes, I’ll play with the plastic forks and see if I can tighten things up a bit.

Re the Zin/primitivo discussion, I’ll chat with some neighbors and commercial wineries and get more data. I have to live with these choices for a long time so would rather get it right the first time. Thanks for the input.

Regarding uneven ripening of Zin, I’ve noticed that my neighbor with the 100 plus acres of Zin picks their vineyard multiple times. The same vine may get picked as many as three times. Perhaps that is one way, in a large scale vineyard, to deal with the problem. I have definitely seen my home batches of Zin have 3 and even once a 4 point climb in brix after the crush. it did eventually finish primary but it was a challenge. But that’s a topic for another thread.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Re rootstock - 1103P‘s vigor was one of my concerns with using it - that and it’s not a perfect match for low ph soil. I’m amending with lime but you never know exactly where the ph will end up. The 3309 does better with the low ph soil and has less vigor - so was my first choice. More water isn’t much of an issue - I’ve got a very strong well and solar panels so I can pretty much water as needed.

I’m planning to plant with 12 foot aisles and 6 feet between vines. I will have to play with vine spacing a bit as each row is a different length. The West side end posts will be square to the fence but the east side end posts will be at a diagonal parallel to the East fence as my lot is really far from square. So the uphill rows (south side) will be about 170 feet long and the northern most rows about 120 feet. The Zin/primitivo vines will be on the South side - so in the longer rows. when the time comes, I’ll play with the plastic forks and see if I can tighten things up a bit.

Re the Zin/primitivo discussion, I’ll chat with some neighbors and commercial wineries and get more data. I have to live with these choices for a long time so would rather get it right the first time. Thanks for the input.

Regarding uneven ripening of Zin, I’ve noticed that my neighbor with the 100 plus acres of Zin picks their vineyard multiple times. The same vine may get picked as many as three times. Perhaps that is one way, in a large scale vineyard, to deal with the problem. I have definitely seen my home batches of Zin have 3 and even once a 4 point climb in brix after the crush. it did eventually finish primary but it was a challenge. But that’s a topic for another thread.

Yeah I would recommend talking to commercial growers and seeing what they think would grow best where you are. Getting it right when you plant your vines is important.

 

[justsgm]

Hi, I'm looking to start a small vineyard of about 2 acres. Can anyone refer me to a consultant that can help design a trellis system and advice on rootstock selection. This is in northern New Jersey.

 

[GSMChris]

Hi, I'm looking to start a small vineyard of about 2 acres. Can anyone refer me to a consultant that can help design a trellis system and advice on rootstock selection. This is in northern New Jersey.

Hi JustGSM - I'd suggest posting this as an standalone thread with a title like - looking for a vineyard consultant in northern NJ. I am afraid you will just get buried in this thread...

 

[BigH]

We've tested the soil and other than being acidic, it mostly just needs organic matter - aka compost.

How much OM did you measure in your soil?

H

 

[GSMChris]

Hi there:

We dug two trenches, roughly 40 inches deep. We then took scrapings from both sides of each trench at the 12, 24, and 36 inch level. the 12 inch samples from the two trenches were mixed together, 24s together etc.

OM level at 12 inch level was 1.9%, 24” 1.0 and 36” 0.7. Recommended action was to add 5 tons of compost per acre - which in my case converts to 4 tons as the vineyard is about 0.8 acres. They also suggested cover cropping and/or compost/manure be applied annually to make up for the natural loss of 1-1.5% annually due to decomposition.

btw - compost is sold by the yard not by weight here. and, or course, what it weighs depends upon how wet it is and what materials were used in making the compost..So, advice I was given was to assume 800 lbs per yard on the compost. Might be more, might be less but that’s close enough.

 

[BigH]

They also suggested ... and/or compost/manure be applied annually

My advice is to hold off on this annual recommendation until you observe the growth of your vines. Too much OM and nitrogen can cause excessive vigor. The ideal range for OM in a vineyard is 2-3% from soil samples taken between 6 and 8 inches. Your 1.9% at 12 inches doesn't seem too bad. Your initial amendment plus what you get from the cover crop might last quite a few years as you get the vineyard established. It is wise to repeat soil tests around year 3 or 4 (don't need to dig a 3 foot trench for those)

OM drops off quickly with depth, typically following a sideways exponential or S curve.

Good luck.
H

 

[CortneyD]

I'm in Wisconsin so I have no idea (specifically) what California soils are like, but is it common to amend the soil for wine grapes? Will you continue to amend after the initial application?

 

[Joe B.]

I would not do anything to encourage vigor with the 1103P rootstock. I'm no pro and don't know what your OM should be but I know 1103P and it grows like a weed.

 

[GSMChris]

The existing nitrogen levels are low to deficient (NO3-N 3.8).

The soil report suggests just the compost for the first year. Then some NPK fertilizer for year two then retest with tissue analysis to see what the plants are actually getting.