Stuck juice concentrate mix

[ed71]

Hey guys, for the few years Ive been making my own wines ive only used exclusively Lalvins EC-1118 for everything. It was always strong, never stuck, and my wines were pretty strong.

However, I decided to cut down on the alcohol and start using "Red Stars Montrachet" since it would bring it down to about 15% and lower.

My problem is that Ive got two 5 gallons of the stuff. The first one OG was 1.090 and the second 1.110. Both are about one month old and I put a ton of yeast nutrient in both buckets. However, the first one is stuck @1.050 and the second one@ 1.060.

Unless I measured the OG incorrectly somethings wrong here. Anyone here got any ideas? I am wondering if my room is too cold. (currently 68 normal is 73) was thinking of taking them outside when the temperatures move up to around upper 70s to see if would kickstart it. (eastern U.S.)

Last but not least, would have to warm up some EC-1118 to help chomp up the buckets of its sugar.

 

[sour_grapes]

However, I decided to cut down on the alcohol and start using "Red Stars Montrachet" since it would bring it down to about 15% and lower.

I am not sure why your batches are stuck now, but this statement does not really make sense to me. Unless you are hoping to ferment to the toxicity level of the yeast, then you generally control ABV by what your starting SG is, not by what yeast you use. Were you indeed trying the approach of reaching the toxicity level of your yeast?

 

[salcoco]

I agree with sour grapes your ABV is based on starting sg not the yeast. What is a ton of yeast nutrient mean?. should hydrate yeast with go-Ferm then add nutrient like Fermaid-K once fermentation starts. go ferm use is usually 1.2 grams per gallon and Fermaid-k is one gram/gallon.
your room temp seems to be okay, adding heat may do the trick.

 

[cpfan]

BTW, 1.110 is going to yield about 15.3%.

 

[ed71]

Well, what I meant to say, was from letting it become sickly sweet to more of a dryer taste. Before, Ive always added sugar to bring OG levels to about 1.120 or 1.130 with using EC-1118. It was always strong in ABV.

Since never using any other yeast besides EC-1118 and maybe some bakers yeast, I lowered the the OG to get maybe a dryer taste since using "Montrachet"

As for the nutrient, used nearly half of a one ounce bottle for each bucket of some stuff called "Yeast Energizer" made by some company called "BSG" When I added the stuff, the yeast went literally crazy and it bubbled like madness with a foam as if it were beer wort fermenting, But in the span of half a minute unlike beer.

But Im guessing, some higher temps may bring it back.

 

[Tnuscan]

1/2 oz should be 3 teaspoons of energizer. If you feel the most aggressive part of fermentation is past rack in carboys under airlock. Get the temps to at least 72 and see if there's activity in the airlock, if so let er roll.

 

[sour_grapes]

Well, here is what Jack Keller has to say about Montrachet: (Emphasis added.)

Montrachet : Perhaps the most popular yeast used. It is available for both red and white wine fermentations and may be called Montrachet Red and Montrachet White. It works especially well in producing Chardonnay in barrel and stainless steel. It also tolerates sulfur dioxide well, but does not work well with high sugar levels (more than 23.5° Brix). It is this ineffectiveness in high sugar levels that is most likely responsible for many stuck fermentations. Temperature range is 59-86°F, low flocculation, and alcohol is pretty reliable at 13%.

FYI, 23.5 Brix is SG = 1.099, and SG of 1.110 is 25.9 Brix.

 

[NorCal]

Having a starting SG greater than the yeast is designed for is a recipe for stuck. Why not lower the starting SG to where you want your alcohol to be and keep the 1118?

If you want it a little sweet, ferment dry, filter, SO2, Sorbate and back sweeten.

 

[ed71]

Sour Grapes, Norcal, Thanks for the info. I had no idea about the specifics of this specific yeast. Something in my gut was telling me something was wrong and all this time, It was the OG being too high for the yeast. Im glad I came here to post. I learn something new every day.

Looks like I will have to keep using EC-1118 and adjust ABV by OG levels and backsweeten if too dry. Thanks guys.

 

[sour_grapes]

Looks like I will have to keep using EC-1118 and adjust ABV by OG levels and backsweeten if too dry. Thanks guys.

Yup, you got it! That is the way to do it.

 

[ed71]

Well one of my ideas, besides maybe lower ABV, was to try out some other yeasts just to see how they were. I did notice on some other sites and on youtube that different yeasts had slightly different flavors or differences that I may or may not have noticed.

But now armed with new experience, I think maybe taking a look at that one site that "sour grapes" mentioned might be worth well into reading. Especially on the quirks of the different types of yeasts.

 

[NorCal]

If you are interested in improving the quality/flavor of the product you are producing, I think you might find that making wine from or adding fresh wine grapes skins to your frozen juice concentrate will have a bigger impact than a yeast change.

 

[heatherd]

I agree with @NorCal - you stated that you want to improve the wine you make from frozen concentrate by yeast swaps. This would be a subtle change.

Making a bigger change would be to make wine from fresh juice, fresh grapes, or a kit.

 

[Scooter68]

I would have to agree with Heatherd, using fresh ingredients would give you a greater opportunity for improving your end result. Even my weakest wine, a 1 gallon batch of peach wine I made with only 4 1/2 lbs of peaches has one thing that definitely stands out, the fresh peach nose and flavor. It may not be strong but there is no mistaking that it was made with fresh peaches. 100% pure juice may have a strong flavor but if that juice doesn't have the fresh fruit nose and flavor - that's something no additive or yeast can get you.

 

[ed71]

Guys I went ahead and added my EC-1118 to my concentrate and after a few days, its still stuck about 1.050. And the visual bubbles I can see are very little to barely none at all. But when I aerate it, the bubbles come back to life. But after a few days the SP is still the same about 1.050.

But today I found out something that may explain why Im stuck on this page since I used yeast energizer and no yeast nutrient whatsoever.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/connect/2010/04/nutrient-vs-energizer-which-should-i-use-and-when/

My local winestore clerk told me the energizer is the same as regular yeast nutrient. So I ended up using energizer and adding it before I pitched the yeast. This was a very big no no since Im using just juice concentrate which I guess needs more nutrients on its own compared to the fresh stuff.

So I figure from what the site says is that anything with DAP is toxic for yeasts if too much is added. And I used alot of it, well, not a whole lot but I really didnt need it. I needed the nitrogen based stuff like in regular yeast nutrient to back up the yeast when the regular nutrients in the concentrate dwindled down.

What do you guys think?

 

[sour_grapes]

This is a long shot, but.... how are you measuring the SG? Hydrometer or refractometer? (Refractometers are not accurate after fermentation.)

 

[ed71]

Im using a hydrometer but its only off about a few points.

I thought about my last post. Maybe it isnt the DAP in the energizer, but rather not enough nutrient with nitrogen. It seems it stoped about halfway. Im guessing the yeast ate up natural nutrients in the concentrate and since I didnt add any to help it keep going (It is simply frozen juice concentrate not fresh) It just stopped. Plus, I added another form of yeast which probably makes it worse cause they too need the nutrients to keep going.

So Im about to go and buy the correct stuff and add that. If it doesnt work Oh well.

 

[sour_grapes]

Just FYI, DAP does have plenty of nitrogen. The "A" of DAP is ammonia. It is basically a method of delivering nitrogen. Some question whether it is the "right way" to deliver nitrogen, especially late in the fermentation.

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38704
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39655

 

[ed71]

Thanks Sour Grapes, those links really help to clear some things up. I used the inorganic nutrients which the link describes how the yeast love it. But in the long run, they seem to do better with the organic based variety

However, since its about half way, Im hoping the yeast will up take the change in nutrients from inorganic (DAP) to the organic amino based stuff. The author of the link does say that such a drastic change will cause a temporary pause in fermentation switching from inorganic to organic nutrients. Hopefully, this happens in my case and the yeast finish the rest of the sugar. (or at least most of it) I hope.

Thanks again Sour Grapes. Learn something new everyday.

 

[ed71]

Well guys, just liked to mention that, Just like the author of the link that "Sour Grapes posted, My wine has paused and made a turnaround. Both buckets are going crazy with yeast bubbles and both have dropped from 1.050 to 1.030.

Finally unstuck and moving. Was just a tad bit worried. Thanks everyone for there help and tips. Really learned alot.