Sur Lie and Bâttonage

[Ohio Bob]

I love this... completely unreasonable but it sure looks fun.

Economical large capacity stirrer

View attachment 85937

I built a few stir setups for primary fermenting. I thought this would be a way to oxygenate the must. The problem is the stir bar always jumped off center, also the gross lees mucked it up too. I think the stir bar, 2”, was probably not big enough. I’ve never tried it in secondary. My carboys have enough of a punt that would make it impossible to keep the stir bar centered even if it was bigger. These are just collecting dust now.

 

[Obbnw]

What amount of chips, what volume of wine, and how long are you aging?

At this time, I have no idea how much lees covering the oak affects absorption by the wine, and suspect that the depth of the lees and the density of the lees matters.

This years batch with oak had about 0.8 oz of french oak chips from LD Carlson in a 5 gallon carboy. The LD carlson bag is 4 oz and said "sufficient for 25 gallons", since I had 5 gallons I used 1/5 of 4 oz. Looking at other online sources this seems light. The batch was mostly Malbec, 25 brix, 3.6 PH at start of ferment. I put the chips in after racking off gross lees about 6 months ago and racked it again off the oak the other day. The chips were all on the bottom covered by what I thought was a fairly thick layer of sediment, seems like I poured out the last 16 oz or so because it was so thick.

Next year I'll up the amount of oak added.

I don't think I'll stir it though. I was looking at my set up last night from a stirring standpoint and it would be a big hassle and I'm worried about contamination. The hassle is just getting the carboys out. I have them all on the floor in a back corner of basement covered by a bench and blanket in a relatively confined area. To do anything I have to slide them out from under the bench and carry them to someplace with more room. On the plus side, since I put them there and added the blanket the temp has been essentially constant at 59 degrees, 50% RH.

 

[Ohio Bob]

My experience is I’ve always added 4 oz of cubes to my 5g carboys. I’ve often thought I’m not adding enough. I suspect your adding too little.

 

[David Violante]

I built a few stir setups for primary fermenting. I thought this would be a way to oxygenate the must. The problem is the stir bar always jumped off center, also the gross lees mucked it up too. I think the stir bar, 2”, was probably not big enough. I’ve never tried it in secondary. My carboys have enough of a punt that would make it impossible to keep the stir bar centered even if it was bigger. These are just collecting dust now.

Very Cool - I love seeing what folks have done DIY... the punt truly is an issue ~ there's a fairly good size one in the Fermonster as well. I do EMs in there and it would definitely be a problem. Another other option that could work with your device is top down:

 

[winemaker81]

This years batch with oak had about 0.8 oz of french oak chips from LD Carlson in a 5 gallon carboy. The LD carlson bag is 4 oz and said "sufficient for 25 gallons", since I had 5 gallons I used 1/5 of 4 oz.

That's on the light side. I use 1 to 2 oz cubes per carboy.

 

[Mekpdue]

The hassle is just getting the carboys out. I have them all on the floor in a back corner of basement covered by a bench and blanket in a relatively confined area. To do anything I have to slide them out from under the bench and carry them to someplace with more room.

I'm doing the 'storage under the stairs' aging at this time, so went out and bought a cheap ($12.99) 18x12 dolly. Holds a 5-6 gallon Carboy nicely, and with wheels, it moves easily to my bench. Yes, you still have to bend over and of course, lift it up, but since it is on the dolly and off the ground by a couple of inches, it's easier to lift (below). Just a thought.

Interesting experiment, after primary fermentation and secondary is done on the FWK Forte red kits (min. 2 weeks with gross lees). I wonder how valuable it would be rack off the gross lees, add the oak chips and finishing pack (kmeta) to the clarifying stage...leaving out the clearing agents (like @winemaker81 suggested). Another question, do you degas?...Then let sit for a couple of months (stirring every week or so). Then go back to the directions and add the clearing agents, wait, rack, and bulk age more. Or, am I missing something simple suggested near the top of the thread, like leave on the lees until just before bottling time?

 

[balatonwine]

@balatonwine, thanks for the example.

I expect the hive mind will develop ideas. I suspect this is not that difficult, once we understand the ramifications.

One of the difficulties is ensuring we fully identify the differences between gross and fine lees.

I have difficulty is fully identifying gross and fine lees.

Why?

I know and have read all the literature. But.... I have not found them to be fully accurate for me.

For example, I have had 1 cm or 0.5 cm of lees and they seem to impact the wine the same. Or not. And I have had a "dusting" of lees when stirred do amazing things or damage the wine when a thicker lees had no effect.

There is a heck of a lot more biology and chemistry going on there than I have been able to figure out.

Frustrating.

 

[vinny]

For example, I have had 1 cm or 0.5 cm of lees and they seem to impact the wine the same. Or not. And I have had a "dusting" of lees when stirred do amazing things or damage the wine when a thicker lees had no effect.

Frustrating.

This statement is really intriguing as I have no experience with... Well, much of any of this. My first thought was not disbelieving of your experience, but that there must be some unknown variable that caused such drastic changes with minimal differences in process and likely ingredients.

Now, I'm COMPLETELY talking outside of any experience or research here, and only doing so for interests sake. However, your statement got me pondering. Could this be something similar to hydrophobic soil? So dried and sun baked that during a downpour torrents of water will rush over the surface, where as, with a light rain before a downpour the soil can absorb the bulk of the moisture.

Giving the same thought process with mixing up a larger amount of sediment, could it saturate the wine with so many particulates that all, or at least the more volatile compounds are not able to affect the chemistry and flavors with such notable effects, where a lighter suspension might allow more absorption, reaction, etc. ?

Perhaps the ponderings of a madman, but that's all I've got.

 

[winemaker81]

Giving the same thought process with mixing up a larger amount of sediment, could it saturate the wine with so many particulates that all, or at least the more volatile compounds are not able to affect the chemistry and flavors with such notable effects, where a lighter suspension might allow more absorption, reaction, etc. ?

That's an interesting take on the problem.

My first thought was that the thinner layer of lees had more gross lees in it, so it had a more noticeable effect. Which lines up neatly with your hypothesis.

 

[balatonwine]

Giving the same thought process with mixing up a larger amount of sediment, could it saturate the wine with so many particulates that all, or at least the more volatile compounds are not able to affect the chemistry and flavors with such notable effects, where a lighter suspension might allow more absorption, reaction, etc. ?

Perhaps the ponderings of a madman, but that's all I've got.

Madman? I think you might be a genius.

What you are suggesting has interesting possibilities.

Similar to Biodynamics. Remove all the esoterics, and pseudo-science, the process does actually seem to add micro nutrients in a potentially positive way. As a biologist I am underwhelmed by the esoterics of Biodynamics (but understand the cultural need to have them so plants get nutrients when they need them). And I do admit that we know less than we should about micro nutrients, and Biodynamics may indeed have very positive effects, when applied as proper times (esoteric timing my be correct). I have considered such micronutrients in my land, but less so in my wine, and zero consideration on Sur Lie, so your comment does make me take pause and think. The hive mind in action. Thanks.

 

[Obbnw]

I've been pondering the stirring and decided the that for me the best way to do this is just spin and stop the carboy. I tested it this morning and could see it was working. I just used a small plastic jar centered under the carboy and twirled it, then stopped the carboy. You could see it kick up the sediment. I suspect with a "lazy susan" type base it would be really easy and you'd be able to spin it much faster than I could balanced on a plastic jar.

I think I'll keep spinning one of my carboys at least once a week for the next few months see if I notice a difference. Most of my carboys are 3 gallons and from the same or very similar ferments.

 

[winemaker81]

Perhaps the ponderings of a madman, but that's all I've got.

On many forums beginners and newcomers are hesitant to post, due to the way existing members treat folks. Thankfully that's not what we do here.

I'm hoping more folks will post -- not all ideas are correct, but as @balatonwine says, the hive mind will generally figure things out. In the end, our group knowledge is greater!

 

[FlamingoEmporium]

You guys always treat everybody respectfully.

I’ve got two 750 liter bottles of the loquat batch under airlock that I didn’t treat with extra Pectic enzyme Reserved for topping off. One of them stopped its action while I was gone for a little over a day and then revived nicely with a little shake. I think I’m going to use that one bottle as a bâttonage bottle experiment give it a stir ever day.

update:
it was stopped again today. Might not be a good candidate for this experiment. It might have been the last bit I took of primary. Have to check the SG

 

[stickman]

I have only worked with lees on red wine, the result was good, but there are many factors involved and I haven't done any side by side studies to make strong conclusions. The main concern with lees stirring in red wine is potential color loss. I followed Clark's recommendation to remove the fine lees and reserve in a separate vessel, and allow the wine at least 4 months for the color to become bound. During this time, the vessel of lees need to be stirred regularly and have access to small amounts of oxygen to prevent them from becoming stinky; in my case I used a gallon screwcap jug with about 60ml of head space, this way every time you open to check for off odors the headspace is replenished with air then recapped and shaken to suspend the lees completely. After the 4 month period, as long as the lees are clean smelling, they can be added back to the wine and stirred. The process is a PITA and the winemaker has to determine if the result is worth the effort.


Regarding white wine, below is a response from Clark Smith on a comment and question about his Faux Chablis. I suppose it just highlights the complex issues with winemaking, from start to finish every single step affects the next, then it takes multiple years to determine if you achieved the desired results.


Dude, the smoke in that Faux Chablis just sends me. You say it's yeast autolysis. I've stirred a lot of yeast, but I never got THAT! Is there a secret combination of elements? Or maybe I didn't stir often enough long enough?

Mark:

Thanks for the nice comments on the Faux. We're trying to show two things in this wine. One is that California Chardonnay doesn't need to be an oaky, toasty butterbomb -- blame the winemaker, not the terroir. This wine shows the distinctive lemon oil character because the alcohol isn't very high (12.9%), lowered from 14.8% original at dryness to a sweet spot. A high degree of ripeness is essential, just in Chablis, to get this character, but in CA wines it hides beneath the alcohol, and we have to adjust it. In Chablis, this isn't necessary. Instead they adjust the alcohol UP with beet sugar to make up for the dilution from rain.

The other is that white wine can achieve soulfulness through structure, same as a red. To build the structure, we first ferment on well cured, untoasted Alliers chips from Boise France. Then we need to complex the wood tannins with lees, the same way you complex Chenin Blanc's natural tannins in a sur lies Savennieres.

The smoky character is a product of prolonged slow transformation of the lees. It’s a little like marmite, and probably involves slowly evolving low temperature maillard reaction products. I’ve never seen them in batonage wines until at least three years later.

These wines are quite steely when they're young, and only open up after four or five years in the bottle. Worth the wait, though.

 

[ChuckD]

I suspect with a "lazy susan" type base it would be really easy and you'd be able to spin it much faster than I could balanced on a plastic jar.

Great idea! Consider it done! I was already going to make an adjustable tilting base for racking…. Got the idea from one of Riceguy’s pictures. The hive mind really does work.

 

[Obbnw]

Great idea! Consider it done! I was already going to make an adjustable tilting base for racking…. Got the idea from one of Riceguy’s pictures. The hive mind really does work.

I just checked the clarity with my phone flashlight (also a tip I learned on this site) and on the one I "stirred" you couldn't see the light at all through the carboy, on a similar batch, I could easily see through it. So it did mix it up pretty well.

 

[Swedeman]

If anyone has evidence otherwise of concentrates having no fruit solids, please post.

Have you seen any in the juice bags? I have never seen any in the kits I have done.

 

[Swedeman]

I’ve got two 750 liter bottles

I know everything is big in your country but wow... ;-)

 

[FlamingoEmporium]

I know everything is big in your country but wow... ;-)

ml. Gosh. Wow. I’ll blame it on autocorrect. “Autocorrect is my worst enema”
750 ML

we have big glasses here too

 

[winemaker81]

Have you seen any in the juice bags? I have never seen any in the kits I have done.

Every time I've made a kit, there was solid residue in the bag. Not lots, but not zero, either. I didn't think of that when I first posted.