Tannins in new hybrid varieties

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I've been reading some research into hybrid wine tannins and found it interesting that the lack of tannins in many hybrid wines stems not from the lack of tannins in the grapes themselves (thought it can contribute), but from the poor extraction of the tannins. It seems that contact with the grape pomace can reduce the tannin levels in the must, as the pomace seems to absorb tannin, making techniques like extended/cold maceration reduce tannin levels rather than increase them.

I was wondering if this is true with newer hybrids that retain better tannin levels (ie: Ploucher bred grapes like Petite Pearle)? Like, do those varieties just have naturally high levels of tannin in the must shortly after crush, but will suffer a reduction with extended maceration? Or something else?
 
I have been able to get an answer when emailing Tom Ploucher on his web site. Tannin analysis is lab analysis, so try Tom. Cornell has a good grape program so they probably have someone who has worked on tannin. Minnesota probably has someone up on the literature but my read is they have a smaller program therefore dedicated tannin expert is unlikely.
Interesting question.
 
There are so many variables to consider with inter-specific hybrids. One is history -when many of these grapes were developed, the world was in a crisis that they needed to find a way out of because all of their grape crop was being destroyed by phylloxera. The major grapes and major pressures at the time (late 19th century) were very different from today. Wine growers were interested first and foremost in quantity ("faire pisser les vignes") and most wines were not made for quality or aging, but for quick consumption by indiscriminate consumers. Aramon was the most prominent grape. It is a vinifera grape but has many of the qualities of today's interspecific hybrids -it had a somewhat weedy aroma, low tannin and low color. It was able to produce a huge amount of wine per acre, in many environments and that was the biggest factor. So, when the original hybrids were bred, wine quality was not the first consideration (because it wasn't a big consideration in general). Resistance to phylloxera, ability to produce a big crop and adaptability to many climates were the biggest factors. Aramon was the natural vinifera hybridizer, and this variety gave so many of the older hybrids their characteristics as much as did the "American" grapes. The modern hybrids built off of the earlier ones and inherited many of these traits. Cornell and other modern developers of cold climate and other hybrids have used these hybrids as a base, but recently have made a big push to breed in much better vinifera examples and work towards more than just big crops (think Noiret and Corot Noir). I think the breeders like Tom Ploucher are actually in an interesting position now, because the world of wine has turned so much toward quality over quantity in the last 50 years, and he can make use of the huge amount of both cold-resistant and high quality genetic material for his crosses. I tried several wines made from his grapes in Vermont (Verona and Petit Pearls) and I was blown away by how well suited they were for quality wine. Unlike almost every other hybrid these really had vinifera wine characteristics -it was amazing. I had experienced very high quality hybrid whites, but not really so much with reds. I see big things in the future for Tom and others like him and for red hybrids going forward.
 
So I took Rice_Guy's advice and emailed Tom. Here's his response:

"The narrative about tannin behavior in hybrids does not apply to my varieties. Cold soaking and extended maceration is actually the way to go. They are very much like vinifera for tannin extraction."
 
I tried several wines made from his grapes in Vermont (Verona and Petit Pearls) and I was blown away by how well suited they were for quality wine.
It is an exciting time for viticulture these days with all the new high quality grape varietals being released. I see a time when the wine quality from the Midwest will rival that of California. Those on the west coast are largely dismissive of wine made in the heartland but there will come another "Judgement of Paris" moment that will pop the bubble of self congratulatory hubris they live in.
 
From what I’ve read it’s the proteins binding with the tannins. Too much protein in the hybrids. So I wonder if adding a lot of tannin at crush would help get rid of excess protein and then after fermentation and racking adding more tannin which would not have any protein to bind with. When I picked my Marquette this year I could sense the tannin in the skins, but after fermentation there was none.
 
o I wonder if adding a lot of tannin at crush would help get rid of excess protein and then after fermentation and racking adding more tannin

There was a study reported by the enologist at Purdue that looked at tannin additions to the must during fermentation. The result was that the added tannin was bound up also! So they recommended that tannin additions be done after pressing.
 
You might want to try use of bentonite to bind with the proteins. There's been some research done on merits of this at Cornell
 
You might want to try use of bentonite to bind with the proteins. There's been some research done on merits of this at Cornell


Check out the link I included in the first post, it deals exactly with that question.

"One of the most relevant finding was that protein removal from must prior to alcoholic fermentation, using bentonite addition or heat treatment, did not significantly improve tannin retention in CHIG Frontenac wines. On the contrary, conducting fermentation without pomace significantly increased tannin retention in wine, when exogenous tannins were used. In this case, concentrations of exogeneous tannins comprised between 5-15 times the recommended dose were necessary to obtain a significant increase in wine tannin concentration."
 
Last week I was part of an evaluation tasting panel for about 200 wines made from experimental grapes under development at NDSU. I'm very excited by a couple of new red grapes that just blew me away in complexity and fruit. We are making excellent progress in tannin content and lowering the acid of these new varieties. And they survive a North Dakota winter. Also, several excellent white varieties were simply amazing in their flavors.
 
Tannin content in hybrids is a very interesting problem. I have been working on a side project to overcome this with new technology and have got good results with baco noir. I would love to talk with any commercial hybrid winemakers about this if anyone is interested. Please send me a DM if you would like to chat.
 
I usually mix in a small amount of granulated oak in the fermenting grapes to help snuff out any vegetal aromas. The tannin can't hurt for sure and may help stabilize the color.

I press most of my hybrids at 4 days post crush/inoculation. They have a modest amount of tannin after a year aging in barrels. Closer to a Pinot and nothing compared to a Cab Sauv.
 
Last week I was part of an evaluation tasting panel for about 200 wines made from experimental grapes under development at NDSU. I'm very excited by a couple of new red grapes that just blew me away in complexity and fruit. We are making excellent progress in tannin content and lowering the acid of these new varieties. And they survive a North Dakota winter. Also, several excellent white varieties were simply amazing in their flavors.
What new varieties were you most excited about? I’ve found a little info about the NDSU program but not a lot to go off of or any names.
 
@Cynewulf you are in N Virginia so you have more choices than North Dakota. What zone?

A zone 5/ 4b point of view, PetitePearl has very good tannin, I have heard good about Verona and a number of local growers have some planted. Have you checked NE Vine supply?, they seem to be experts in the northern grapes, ,,, Have you checked UofMin?, they have an active on campus winery ,, and Tom Plocher?, ,,
 
@Cynewulf you are in N Virginia so you have more choices than North Dakota. What zone?

A zone 5/ 4b point of view, PetitePearl has very good tannin, I have heard good about Verona and a number of local growers have some planted. Have you checked NE Vine supply?, they seem to be experts in the northern grapes, ,,, Have you checked UofMin?, they have an active on campus winery ,, and Tom Plocher?, ,,
I’m just curious about new varieties under development, especially if someone’s had a chance to taste them. I have a few gaps in my vineyard to fill and some of my weaker Cabernet Franc vines may be replaced with something more disease resistant. I’m zone 7 and I’ll likely end up going with Regent and/or Chelois but am always interested in hearing about what else is in the works and I haven’t seen much news on new varieties since Itasca came out.
 
For disease I like Briana and concord and kinda like Millot and Foch.

Itasca is excellent this year with a drought but had black rot worse than Frontenac last year with normal rain.
That’s wild - I’ve had a bit of black rot on my Marquette this year and I’m worried I won’t be able to hold of the downy on my Cabernet Franc again but my Itasca is the one vine I have that stays completely disease free.
 

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