Tasteless wine

[BigDaveK]

@David Violante has some excellent advice!

The flavor ingredient is the absolute most important. Personally, when I taste fruit, vegetables, or flowers if I don't say, "Mmm, that good!" then I don't use it for a dedicated wine. Maybe it can be a secondary flavor in a recipe, maybe it can go in a smoothie.

Also, don't use water for topping up. A similar wine, a similar/same fruit juice, even some teas - anything that won't dilute your wine.

 

[GretchenR]

There’s a ton of great info people have posted here from their experiences. Use good fruit, and 6-9 pounds per gallon is a good starting point. Freezing the fruit and then thawing it before fermentation can help to break down the cells in the fruit and give your fermentation better access to everything. Pectic enzyme also helps.

Do you have a hydrometer? Add sugar to achieve a specific specific gravity where you want it. That relates to the potential alcohol content after fermentation. I personally like to be around 1.080-1.090. Using a hydrometer takes the guess work out of how much sugar to add (chapatization) based on other ingredients, volume, etc… try not to add water unless you have to...

There’s science and art with all the above. Here’s some more… different yeasts impart different characteristics and also have different requirements and nutritional needs. Know what those are before you use them so that you know how to be most effective and give them what they need to do their work. For example, 71b will eat up some of the acid and may be best for a higher acid fruit. There are a lot of choices. Try some different smaller size ferments of the same fruit with different yeasts to see what happens and what you like. Be sure to add nutrients for them.

Try to have the end in mind before you begin so you know what you need to do to get there. And have fun! And make it the way YOU want it. You’re drinking it! There’s a lot of information in many areas of the forum. Search around to get some answers and different perspectives and experiences. They will help to guide your decision making process. And ask! Looking forward to how your rhubarb progresses!

If you freeze the peaches and then thaw them, do you soak them in lemon juice before freezing to keep them from turning brown, like you do when you freeze peaches for cooking? Or is that not necessary because you aren't freezing them for very long?

 

[winemaker81]

If you freeze the peaches and then thaw them, do you soak them in lemon juice before freezing to keep them from turning brown, like you do when you freeze peaches for cooking? Or is that not necessary because you aren't freezing them for very long?

Peaches can brown fast, so I'd follow the preservation recipe for cooking peaches. The time during freezing and thawing may be enough to produce a problem.

 

[Rice_Guy]

@GretchenR the raw peaches I freeze seem to survive freezing (halves with out pit). Yes you could do lemon or even Real Lemon or an acidic sanitizer solution. They will tend to brown In spite of it. Browning seems to be from oxygen exposure so fo me the key is to get them mushed/ squeeze the air out when I start a primary.
the factory method is surface treat with steam which also helps pull the skins off. Mom would use a boiling water bath which again helps on the skins.

 

[Raptor99]

Since I am going to add acid blend to my peach wine anyway, I add some acid blend to the peaches before freezing them. For this to work, I need to know how I plan to use the peaches and estimate how much acid blend I'm going to need. I also add pectic enzyme before freezing them.

 

[David Violante]

@GretchenR all the above... LOL

 

[GretchenR]

I can't say I have solved the "tasteless fruit wine" problem, but I have perhaps added a new tool to the toolbox. I made peach cheong (a pound of peaches, a pound of sugar, sealed in a container for 100 days, and the liquid you drain off is cheong) and used it to back sweeten my peach wine, and it really intensified the peach flavor. Good thing I like fruit wines to be at least off dry, if not even sweeter than that. Now I'm going to use another batch of peach cheong as half the sugar to start the peach wine with, and probably more cheong to back sweeten it, and I'll report back to say whether the double shot of cheong improves things even more. Let's hope that the cheong recipes are right when they say that it's safe even though it's been sitting on the counter for 100 days because the proportion of sugar is so high.

 

[BigDaveK]

I can't say I have solved the "tasteless fruit wine" problem, but I have perhaps added a new tool to the toolbox. I made peach cheong (a pound of peaches, a pound of sugar, sealed in a container for 100 days, and the liquid you drain off is cheong) and used it to back sweeten my peach wine, and it really intensified the peach flavor. Good thing I like fruit wines to be at least off dry, if not even sweeter than that. Now I'm going to use another batch of peach cheong as half the sugar to start the peach wine with, and probably more cheong to back sweeten it, and I'll report back to say whether the double shot of cheong improves things even more. Let's hope that the cheong recipes are right when they say that it's safe even though it's been sitting on the counter for 100 days because the proportion of sugar is so high.

Very interesting!!
Yes, you'd think nasty bugs would like a sweet environment but a boatload of sugar actually acts as a preservative.

And thank you. I had to read about "cheong". Learned something new today!

 

[hounddawg]

I have made wine of several sorts of fruits, pears, mango, peaches. All have been drinkable, but they never taste like the fruit that have been used. The tast is awesome during early ferment, but it disappears as the ferment progresses. What can I do to get the wine taste like the used fruit?

great info here, my goal is to produce the flavor of the fruit or berry,,,, on heavier flavored fruits triple the amount of fruit called for, for banana i go with 13 to 14 pound per gallon, the lighter the flavor the more per pound to the gallon, always make extra must,, for topping up with, you can use water in your must, on heavy flavors, like blueberry/blackberry in your must, , now for banana , like i said i go about 13 pound a gallon but no water in must, use either pure apple juice or white grape juice, 71B or K1V-1116 IS GOOD, i run my ABV % up high, so K1V-1116 Is great, with enough fruit/berry from day 1 and back sweetening before bottling but after potassium sorbate to stop refermenting, and aging helps so much, so very much, mine has no alcohol taste but tons of flavors,,,, best of luck to you, i bulk age so i rack every 3 months adding K-meta each time, you said gallon, so your using a 1 gallon thumb hole jug, it has 38-400 threads and uses a 6.5 drilled bung, i keep 1 gallon , half gallon, quarts and pint jugs/jars with 38-400 threads so all use 6.5 bungs, as well a small universal bung flipped upside down will allow you to airlock wine bottles for extra top up must/wine. so you never dilute or add anything but the wine you are making,,,,
Dawg

 

[vinny]

Very interesting!!
Yes, you'd think nasty bugs would like a sweet environment but a boatload of sugar actually acts as a preservative.

And thank you. I had to read about "cheong". Learned something new today!

Hardly even seems like a cheat.

 

[vinny]

great info here, my goal is to produce the flavor of the fruit or berry,,,, on heavier flavored fruits triple the amount of fruit called for, for banana i go with 13 to 14 pound per gallon, the lighter the flavor the more per pound to the gallon, always make extra must,, for topping up with, you can use water in your must, on heavy flavors, like blueberry/blackberry in your must, , now for banana , like i said i go about 13 pound a gallon but no water in must, use either pure apple juice or white grape juice, 71B or K1V-1116 IS GOOD, i run my ABV % up high, so K1V-1116 Is great, with enough fruit/berry from day 1 and back sweetening before bottling but after potassium sorbate to stop refermenting, and aging helps so much, so very much, mine has no alcohol taste but tons of flavors,,,, best of luck to you, i bulk age so i rack every 3 months adding K-meta each time, you said gallon, so your using a 1 gallon thumb hole jug, it has 38-400 threads and uses a 6.5 drilled bung, i keep 1 gallon , half gallon, quarts and pint jugs/jars with 38-400 threads so all use 6.5 bungs, as well a small universal bung flipped upside down will allow you to airlock wine bottles for extra top up must/wine. so you never dilute or add anything but the wine you are making,,,,
Dawg

I have an 11 month old triple berry, heavy on the blackberry. It was wine #5, made 6 days after my first wine and then joining this forum that same day when I realized I had no idea what I was doing. I was aiming for 8 lbs of fruit for a gallon, but added too much water not accounting for the volume of the berries. I think I ended up around 8 lbs of fruit for 1.5 gallons of wine.

I haven't touched it since July 13. I have it sealed with a bung and plastic wrap. K-meta obviously wouldn't hurt. Should I taste it, maybe back sweeten and then make a decision? Plan on leaving it for another year? Patience has clearly set in, I would have said I just racked it 2-3 months ago. I was so busy making the country wines for the fun of it, I never accounted for them ever actually being ready! What do do, what to do?

 

[sour_grapes]

I have an 11 month old triple berry, heavy on the blackberry. It was wine #5, made 6 days after my first wine and then joining this forum that same day when I realized I had no idea what I was doing. I was aiming for 8 lbs of fruit for a gallon, but added too much water not accounting for the volume of the berries. I think I ended up around 8 lbs of fruit for 1.5 gallons of wine.

I haven't touched it since July 13. I have it sealed with a bung and plastic wrap. K-meta obviously wouldn't hurt. Should I taste it, maybe back sweeten and then make a decision? Plan on leaving it for another year? Patience has clearly set in, I would have said I just racked it 2-3 months ago. I was so busy making the country wines for the fun of it, I never accounted for them ever actually being ready! What do do, what to do?

Just chug it!

 

[Rice_Guy]

Making an extract is not cheating, I can buy extract by the gallon and put it in the tank to change/ add flavors. In essence this is like using an F pack or juice concentrate from the freezer case.

Safety? Concentrated sugar syrups have high osmotic pressure which prevents microbial growth. The main risk is with molds that grow on the surface, especially if moisture condenses and creates a high moisture localized area at the edge.

I can't say I have solved the "tasteless fruit wine" problem, but I have perhaps added a new tool to the toolbox. I made peach cheong (a pound of peaches, a pound of sugar, sealed in a container for 100 days, and the liquid you drain off is cheong) and used it to back sweeten my peach wine, and it really intensified the peach flavor. Good thing I like fruit wines to be at least off dry, if not even sweeter than that. Now I'm going to use another batch of peach cheong as half the sugar to start the peach wine with, and probably more cheong to back sweeten it, and I'll report back to say whether the double shot of cheong improves things even more. Let's hope that the cheong recipes are right when they say that it's safe even though it's been sitting on the counter for 100 days because the proportion of sugar is so high.

Going back to the start of this thread, TASTELESS WINE. I pose the question of flavor masking?
If we stress the yeast, as by having low nutrition when they reach plateau growth phase, or running high fermentation temperatures which increases nutrient demand, yeast produce H2S which has a threshold detection in the parts per trillion range and eventually react into mercaptans which also have low detection levels. These sulfur compounds mask the aromatics and produce more bitter/ meaty/ skunky notes. ,,,, Question ~ what flavors are dominating? We shouldn’t have any mercaptan related flavors/ taste to be able to smell our starting fruit aromatics.

The vinters club started testing Renaissance yeast (no H2S) this fall and the feed back at racking was good. A second sulfur related approach is to use organic nitrogen ( NO DAP) which slows the cell growth and minimizes the population crashing/ yeast stress. ,,,, I am waiting for club contest and state fair to see how judging turns out with this change. ,,, more info in a few months. ,,,, in the mean time if you are starting any delicate flavor batches, Lodi sells five gram packs of Renaissance, (the next one we try in the club will be TR313)

 

[vinny]

Just chug it!

As much as I appreciate your advice, I must remind you, sir, that we are winemakers. We are not savages brewing beer in the basement for a cheap buzz.

We are on a quest for excellence. We hone our skills, tweak our recipes. We are civilized.

We sip, sample, and swirl. We evaluate, grade, and assess. We do not chug!

At least not openly, and NEVER in public.

 

[hounddawg]

AW @sour_grapes is a pure venter,,, if you K-Meta'd it when you racked, I'd just leave it alone for the next year,
now what I'm about to say, is just my way,
first,, I bulk age under a double bubble air lock, the entire time,,,
i sweeten to taste , just before I bottle, now since I bulkage everything for at least 2 years, and my ABV is on the high side, maybe I should, but I never worry about a referment, also known as a Bottle Bomb ,,,, Blackberry is a very stout flavor, so at 8 lb for 1.5 gallon,, you should be great,
Dawg

 

[joeswine]

AW @sour_grapes is a pure venter,,, if you K-Meta'd it when you racked, I'd just leave it alone for the next year,
now what I'm about to say, is just my way,
first,, I bulk age under a double bubble air lock, the entire time,,,
i sweeten to taste , just before I bottle, now since I bulkage everything for at least 2 years, and my ABV is on the high side, maybe I should, but I never worry about a referment, also known as a Bottle Bomb ,,,, Blackberry is a very stout flavor, so at 8 lb for 1.5 gallon,, you should be great,
Dawg

yes, indeed it is