The Stages of Flavor

[koolmoto]

Hi, new home vintner here and had a question about what our musts/wines should taste like at different stages. I am worried that when I taste my must or young wine, I will not have the experience to know if it needs adjustment or just needs to age.

How should I expect the flavors to evolve between being grape juice and a well aged wine?

• Halfway through primary fermentation?
• Primary fermentation complete?
• Halfway through malolactic fermentation?
• Malolactic fermentation complete, but not yet aged?

It would be great to hear your descriptions for various types of wine too if there are major differences a newbie should know about.

 

[Chuck E]

I taste a spoonful every time I stir the must. During the primary, it starts out sweet and gets more sour with each passing day. I think the dissolved CO2 gives the wine a sharp taste at the end of fermentation, and I also can taste the alcohol because it burns the tongue a little. I have never been able to tell the stages of MF by taste, but after a while my taste buds note less sharp acidity. This also happens during aging, so it could be the polymerization that occurs. You also can taste oak if you add that to the mix.
I smell the must everyday, looking for sulphurous smells and off smells. Whites are more aromatic.
I find the differences to reds & whites is in the fruit flavors of the variety.
I also taste the wine at every racking (at minimum). I don't want to over oak a batch. I'm usually not happy with young wines, and I plan for at least 12 months of bulk aging in a carboy or keg.

 

[pillswoj]

I don't taste at all until after it is clear. Initial adjustments are done based on readings (pH and SG). Once the wine is clear I will taste and decide on Oak, Tannin etc. Young wine sucks but wine that is still full of yeast etc is especially bad and I can't tell anything by tasting it. ( Of course I also think Beaujolais Nouveau is the biggest scam the French ever pulled on the world )

 

[Johnd]

Hi, new home vintner here and had a question about what our musts/wines should taste like at different stages. I am worried that when I taste my must or young wine, I will not have the experience to know if it needs adjustment or just needs to age.

How should I expect the flavors to evolve between being grape juice and a well aged wine?

• Halfway through primary fermentation?
• Primary fermentation complete?
• Halfway through malolactic fermentation?
• Malolactic fermentation complete, but not yet aged?

It would be great to hear your descriptions for various types of wine too if there are major differences a newbie should know about.

This is my take on tastes through the process:

• Halfway through primary fermentation? Yeasty and very sweet, there's still lots of sugar left. Maybe some sulfury tastes.
• Primary fermentation complete? Yeasty, disjointed, hints of alcohol, normally pretty fruity (which can be mistaken for sweetness) You may start to get a sense of the tannins.
• Halfway through malolactic fermentation? Yeasty taste / nose subsiding, but still very young and green, perhaps some vegetal tastes / aromas, disjointed, not mellow, nothing seems to be integrated.
• Malolactic fermentation complete, but not yet aged? Not a whole lot different than halfway through MLF, you should sense the lower acid sharpness / bite.

I never really categorize the success or taste / aroma of my wines at the early stages you reference above. The chemical reactions and changes that wine undergoes in the first year or two of life are substantial. Tannin chains are bonding / breaking / falling out, acidity is mellowing, fruit usually disappears and then re-emerges later, the wine begins to come together and the flavors / aromas / sensations from the wine become more integrated. I've had some wines that were just awful early in their existence, only to come blazing back onto the scene. I've had some that I thought were going to be absolute studs in a year or two, then just be sort of mediocre. By all means, taste and evaluate as you go, just know that the potential for vast change is there. The key is letting the wine go through the changes for long enough to see what you really have, and you can still make minor adjustments if you haven't bottled yet. Bottle too soon, you're stuck with what you bottled...........

 

[koolmoto]

Awesome replies. Thanks! This will help me so much as I was wondering if this young pinot noir I just made would ever amount to anything the way it was tasting. I'll let it age and taste it again in the future.

 

[winemanden]

I taste a spoonful every time I stir the must. During the primary, it starts out sweet and gets more sour with each passing day. I think the dissolved CO2 gives the wine a sharp taste at the end of fermentation, and I also can taste the alcohol because it burns the tongue a little. I have never been able to tell the stages of MF by taste, but after a while my taste buds note less sharp acidity. This also happens during aging, so it could be the polymerization that occurs. You also can taste oak if you add that to the mix.
I smell the must everyday, looking for sulphurous smells and off smells. Whites are more aromatic.
I find the differences to reds & whites is in the fruit flavors of the variety.
I also taste the wine at every racking (at minimum). I don't want to over oak a batch. I'm usually not happy with young wines, and I plan for at least 12 months of bulk aging in a carboy or keg.

Chuck, tasting fermenting wine. Hhmmm! All that sugar in the food we eat + wine yeast, that could make an awful lot of gas. Well that's my excuse! LOL

 

[VinesnBines]

I’m with Chuck. I like the taste at every stage. I taste and smell every day during primary and often during aging. In my opinion smell and taste are far superior to the best laboratory tests.

 

[hounddawg]

you can be told all, but the only way to learn to end up with what pleases you, don;t get worried, it'll taste like crap, but by tasting every stage in time you can taste horrible and smile because you will know for a fact how it will be once done and aged, that info can not be taught by others, you will acquire that by tasting your way through, oh your meters and things will help, but your taste will learn your brain, i'll never forget, when younger i was a fetch tote boy for old timers, then years later after getting disabled, i went at it from what i could remember, 2 carboys of blackberry, three of strawberry, and 1 - 6.5 gal carboy and 3 one gal carboys of a pear, apple, crab apple, then i spent 11 months in hospital and another year at my parents, my nephew keep my airlocks full for me, finally after 2 years i was able to get back to my wines, whew, nasty, was going to pour them out but found this forum, they were like no don't throw it out, do this,, do that, 6 years later, realy 8 years later i still consider that the finest wine i have ever made, all because of this forum, they took my dumb butt under there wings and taught me way more then i had forgot, i have no doubt, that you will far surpass me, you only need to suit yourself and your better half if you have one, and by using your instruments and your taste, you will not believe what you are capable of, and you will have fierce pride in what you craft, you'll learn from others mistakes, but the taste at every stage can only be learned you you tasting every stage you go through, Good Luck, in no time you'll be teaching me i'm sure,,,,
Dawg

 

[hounddawg]

I’m with Chuck. I like the taste at every stage. I taste and smell every day during primary and often during aging. In my opinion smell and taste are far superior to the best laboratory tests.

in my book you hit the nail on the head,
Dawg

 

[Snafflebit]

Honestly, the wine will evolve so much after the primary ferment that tasting the must will not tell you much. I have made wines that improved so much after aging 2 years. I was ready to toss the wine but I am glad I waited. Time heals all wounds they say.

 

[hounddawg]

Honestly, the wine will evolve so much after the primary ferment that tasting the must will not tell you much. I have made wines that improved so much after aging 2 years. I was ready to toss the wine but I am glad I waited. Time heals all wounds they say.

when you learn the taste and stages even early on will allow for one to know the direction the must will go, but if you believe different then,,, that is your right, because we each suit ourselves, and for now we are still a free country, as so,, you are free to believe as you wish, as i am to believe as i wish, all nicely to each,,, to suit our selves,
Dawg

 

[Snafflebit]

when you learn the taste and stages even early on will allow for one to know the direction the must will go, but if you believe different then,,, that is your right, because we each suit ourselves, and for now we are still a free country, as so,, you are free to believe as you wish, as i am to believe as i wish, all nicely to each,,, to suit our selves,
Dawg

I could have said that better, Dawg. Believe me, I’ve been told that before! What I should have said is I have had bad smelling musts which in the end turned out to make good wine and do not give up.

 

[hounddawg]

I could have said that better, Dawg. Believe me, I’ve been told that before! What I should have said is I have had bad smelling musts which in the end turned out to make good wine and do not give up.

i'm the king of saying things the wrong way, and i agree 100% on haveing bad smelling must, , i didn't mean it to come out like it did either. no offence meant nore taken,,, alot is all of us are from all over and we all state things differently, that i learned when traveling across the USA as a mall rat,
Dawg

 

[mainshipfred]

I normally make preferment adjustments based on the varietal, pH and brix. Then the first time I might taste it a after MLF. My reasoning is I will more than likely not make any additional adjustment prior to that so the wine is what it is. The six month or so mark is when I start tasting on a monthly basis.

 

[Snafflebit]

alot is all of us are from all over and we all state things differently, that i learned when traveling across the USA as a mall rat,
Dawg

BTW noticed your location. I have relatives in Dexter and Poplar Bluff MO. My dad grew up in a little town called Essex.

 

[Ajmassa]

I know the smells of fermentation and young wine well enough now to know what to expect, how it changes and if something is off or not— more than I do by taste.

But I have noticed the wine often lands in this weird window of time directly after fermentation and pressing which doesn’t seem to last long. usually the last of the pressed wine, especially if it sits a while. The wine is actually quite tasty and can definitely enjoy a glass of it. Soon after it starts changing and maturing into what it will eventually become. But there’s nothing like filling a glass right from the press!

 

[Obbnw]

Honestly, the wine will evolve so much after the primary ferment that tasting the must will not tell you much. I have made wines that improved so much after aging 2 years. I was ready to toss the wine but I am glad I waited. Time heals all wounds they say.

I'm a new wine maker. One of my batches is still wounded but what I thought was undrinkable has turned into drinkable. I'm curious what another year in the bottle will do to it.

 

[hounddawg]

BTW noticed your location. I have relatives in Dexter and Poplar Bluff MO. My dad grew up in a little town called Essex.

yep. know them places, not that far off from me,
Dawg