Unexpected Variations in Cork Seating Depth

[bearpaw8491]

Experienced an unusual situation this week while bottling the ’22 crop of muscadine wine.

I have used my Portuguese floor corker for 30+yrs with no problems and it has always seated the cork at the correct depth.
This week for some unknown reason, it would leave some norma corks 1/4 inch high while sinking others 3/4 inches into the bottle neck and the performing flawlessly on the next bottle! All of the corks are same length.

I checked the bottle platform and it appears free to travel up and down. I don’t think the punts in the bottles would cause the problem since the hight is self adjusting via the spring on the platform and the plunger depth is unchanged in each of these situations. The crimping jaws appear to work fine.

I’m at a total loss. Any ideas, similar experiences, fixes?

Thanks

 

[vinny]

I have had this happen on a couple of occasions. The first was my first bottling and I didn't leave enough ullage and the pressure in the bottles left some corks high and others let air escape and seated fully.

The other time was more recently and although my bottles looked identical their was a half inch height difference in some. The shorter bottles seated high and the taller seated lower. I was baffled until I lined them all up in a crate and then I could see the slight height variance. I don't know why the height would make a difference with the spring loaded platform, but it did.

 

[bearpaw8491]

Thanks Vinny,
Giving the corker the once over again to see if I missed anything on the first look.
I'm using the AIO so the ullage is pretty close to identical but understand your point on internal pressure. Since a liquid is incompressible, its gotta go somewhere.
Your second point - bottle height. Wouldn't the spring loaded bottle platform compensate for differences in bottle height?
The only variable in the this year's bottling session was the first time use of Noma corks. They're all the same length but yet they inconsistently set at different depths.
Thanks for your thoughts. Will check all points again and let you know what I find. Personally, I think its the cellar gremlins!

 

[NorCal]

I’m wondering if the catch that holds the bottle in place as you draw down on the handle is slipping. In the 30 years, it may have some wear.

 

[bearpaw8491]

Thanks NorCal, I went back over the entire corker with a fine toothed comb this afternoon and gave special attention to that area. It appears that the connecting rod and lock bar are functioning the way they should. The bottle platform locks tight when the handle is pulled down. There is just a very small amount of play between engagement and release when raising the leaver. There are two jam nuts on the bottom for adjustment but they are tight and don't appear to have slipped or moved at all. The collar that holds the bottle mouth in place is secure. I'll bottle again next week and will try to detect any differences in seating depths.
Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Jim Welch]

The KISS doctrine implicitly dictates it is almost certainly something to do with the change in corks my friend! If the only difference here for you is the cork material I'd bet dollars to donuts the problem is related somehow to the nomas. If you have any "cork" corks try corking a bottle or two of water for each type of cork, see what happens.

 

[bearpaw8491]

Thanks Jim, believe you're right. In Root Cause Analyses, one phase is called a "Change Analysis" and many times that's where the primary cause lies.
Have used all my regular corks and just opened the Nomas for this bottling. I'll be visiting my LHBS this week and plan to pick up a bag of my old cork variety.
I wanted to try the Noma cork based on some threads here but having second thoughts now. I'm sure they're a good cork but not working for me for some reason.
Will post results for benefit of others who may experience this problem.

PS: Does anyone have a digital copy of the operating instructions/exploded view of parts for a Portuguese corker? May be some insight to be had there.

 

[Brant]

I would bet the floor corker is the issue. It must be slipping under force if the cork is not being seated fully. If it is locking correctly, the corker will install corks to the same depth every time. The only variation might be in having a dimpled cork if the force needed to seat the cork overwhelms the cork's ability to resist deformation. Norma's are synthetic and relatively more malleable than standard corks. I've had double lever corkers dimple Normas pretty consistently because the amount of friction was overwhelming the corks ability to resist. I have only seen this same thing happen a couple times with my Portuguese floor corker and I assumed it was the bottles neck ID causing excessive friction.

Additionally, it's essentially impossible for a floor corker to overseat a cork if the rod & stop nut are calibrated to the correct depth. How can it possibly push a cork deeper when the bottle top sits at the exact same location during every operation? The bottle top can indeed get further away from the end of the rod if the base is slipping but the bottle top cannot get closer to the rod if the stop nut is locked. The rod will stop at the same depth (when properly locked) independent of what the bottle is doing. The bottle top cannot go any higher, so the cork cannot get pushed any deeper unless the rod is unlocked. The only other explanation would be if the hinge on the corker arm is worn out or defective.

These are my thoughts on it without seeing what is happening.

 

[vinny]

Thanks Jim, believe you're right. In Root Cause Analyses, one phase is called a "Change Analysis" and many times that's where the primary cause lies.
Have used all my regular corks and just opened the Nomas for this bottling. I'll be visiting my LHBS this week and plan to pick up a bag of my old cork variety.
I wanted to try the Noma cork based on some threads here but having second thoughts now. I'm sure they're a good cork but not working for me for some reason.
Will post results for benefit of others who may experience this problem.

PS: Does anyone have a digital copy of the operating instructions/exploded view of parts for a Portuguese corker? May be some insight to be had there.

I would be very interested to hear if you discover a reason. I personally don't have any idea how bottle height could cause a variance, but it was consistent with the bottle types. Perhaps the simpler answer is neck variation between the two bottles and it took more force to seat one over the other. I have used mainly Noma corks in my short wine making adventure, and have simply resorted to adjusting the thread initially and then on the odd occasion giving a high cork a second hit after an adjustment. I always found the low end was consistent.

I have seated new corks dry, and an open bag soaked in sanitizer. I have not noticed a difference in that, but noted on the last batch that some seatings made a notable woosh as air escaped the bottle while others did not. Perhaps going back to bottle variance, the Noma cork is firm enough to restrict air escaping the bottle on bottles with a narrower neck?

I will pay attention to this on my next bottling and add anything notable.

 

[bearpaw8491]

Additionally, it's essentially impossible for a floor corker to overseat a cork if the rod & stop nut are calibrated to the correct depth. How can it possibly push a cork deeper when the bottle top sits at the exact same location during every operation? The bottle top can indeed get further away from the end of the rod if the base is slipping but the bottle top cannot get closer to the rod if the stop nut is locked. The rod will stop at the same depth (when properly locked) independent of what the bottle is doing. The bottle top cannot go any higher, so the cork cannot get pushed any deeper unless the rod is unlocked. The only other explanation would be if the hinge on the corker arm is worn out or defective.

Thanks Brant, your point is well taken in that the top of the bottle will always rest against the underside of the corker due to the bottle platform spring tension. If the platform slips downward during the insertion process, the cork would indeed seat higher. I'm still at a loss as to why the cork on occasion seats below the bottle mouth. I'm beginning to think that the rod that locks the platform may be slightly out of adjustment OR the hole in the arm that actually locks the platform may be worn. I'll investigate and let you know.
Vinny: Found an old thread of yours discussing modifications that Nor Cal did on one of these corkers - most interesting and helpful - thanks.
More to follow after additional investigation.

 

[Jim Welch]

If you have some empty bottles and corks, I would try regular corks with water and see how they seat. It does seem odd to have both under and over insertion issues along with proper insertion depth.
You mention your corker is 30 years old, just a thought here but I wonder if a press with 30 years of wear could still satisfactorily seat natural cork but have a hard time with synthetic corks? I've no idea if that's the case or possible, it is really just a guess

 

[bearpaw8491]

Took an in-depth look at the corker after the last note and found that the jam nuts on the platform lock/release had some play.
View attachment 101801
This adjustment controls when the bottle platform locks and releases. I removed the extra play and the platform releases now when the plunger clears the iris. Previously, the handle (and plunger) had to be fully retracted (all the way up) before the platform would release. I have no idea what if any bearing this has on the different seating depths.
Here's a shot of the 3 bottles that I corked after the adjustment.


You may be able to see the slight variation in seating depth. Before you even think it, the depth collar was hot glued in place so it was impossible to move so all the bottles were corked at the exact same depth setting yet there is still variation albeit slight and no where near the original problem.
I can't find any excessive wear on the corker. All noma corks are dented after insertion. I'll pick up a bag of my old corks at the LHBS this week and compare at next bottling.

Thanks to all. I'll keep you posted on outcome with new "old" corks and especially if the situation resolves by a part just flying all to - well, you know!!!

 

[bearpaw8491]

Not sure what happened. Here the original shot of the play.

 

[Brant]

That is quite the conundrum.

Were the corks wet? I normally have my corks in solution that might make them slide in easier.

Can u take a pic of the tops of the bottles showing the cork tops? Are the corks dimpled on the two end bottles and not the middle bottle? Like is the plunger actually going to the same depth but the corks are just deforming at the top and what is sticking out just deformation?

 

[Jim Welch]

Personally I don’t think any of those three corkings in your pic are unacceptable. Two may not be flush but they are close enough imo. They are the noma corks I take it?

 

[bearpaw8491]

Jim: Yep, they're normas. Agreed that they're seated well enough but took the picture to demonstrate the inconsistency. It's better since I made the adjustment. Previously, seating was anywhere from 1/4" above to 1/2 " into the neck.
Brant: The corks were wetted in Kmeta solution and seemed to slide in easily. All of the tops are dented. Guess the nomas are a little softer than my regular corks. The protruding part of the cork is cork and not deformation.
I plan to see how my "old" corks do when I pick up a new supply later this week. Had hoped the nomas would work since they use "green" tech and sustainable products. C'est la vie.

 

[bearpaw8491]

Well, FWIW just found this:

"If the bottle platform fails to return when the corking arm is returned to the top position, tightening the two small screws on the bottom of the front leg can increase platform tension. Adjust them clockwise one turn at a time. "

Remember I noted that the platform wasn't unlocking until the handle was in the full up position. Conceivable that the platform could have been sticking intermittently resulting in higher than expected seating. Then when I would adjust the plunger to get a deeper seat, the platform would return to normal height which would cause a deeper seating.
Here's the link if interested:
http://www.creativeconnoisseur.com/newsletter/files/6582b2624b91cb52ab0fc91cf60e3fe7-74.html

Man! I'm going back to commercial nuclear power. If something screws up there, everybody knows what happened and they know it FAST!!!

Will check with new "old" corks later this week.

Thanks to all. Good exercise in group brainstorming.

 

[vinny]

I checked mine out of curiosity because I am feeling that the experiences I gave might not have been the only variable at play.I also use the AIO bottle filler, so my ullage is consistent since my first botting, but I still see intermittent inconsistencies. My nuts are tightened beyond the slack of the arm. Meaning you had a few turns of play. I have a few turns of tension on it. I am seriously considering bottling just to add to the conversation.

I also have 2 corkers to compare if I get variance.

 

[SDO]

Other than SOP for sani and handling, your setup or others will vary. *Dry* sani corks is a biggy, and degassing via filler or transfers without O2 introduction for wines, meads not so much a matter of issue unless veggies involved.

The attached image is my bottling and age racking, and compressed storage area. Tight, all things pack well, and then unpack quickly, to a near by space as well for use on that table. Having a shower nearby helps, its my sani bottle washing space, and carboy cleaning space (toilet as well).

Just finished Spring time bottling of 13 aged vessels (I use only fermonster now) ~350 bottles of 750s and 375 delgatos of meads, wines, and some-where-in between.

The delgatos are used for leftovers, the 'dreg bottles', for gifting, bartering, trading, and freebees to nice people I meet that have something in return to offer. Labor of love, labor nevertheless for sure.

The differences between the 750s (FLT glass 750 eco line clear) that I use for whites and meads (to showcase colors), and the punted green bottles for reds is slight if at all. quarter spin on depth nut. For delgatos, a bit more, 1-2 360 deg spins. I don't monkey around with the bottle plate tension.

I use nomacorc 900 green series only, 1.5". Hope this helps.

 

[bearpaw8491]

I checked mine out of curiosity because I am feeling that the experiences I gave might not have been the only variable at play.I also use the AIO bottle filler, so my ullage is consistent since my first botting, but I still see intermittent inconsistencies. My nuts are tightened beyond the slack of the arm. Meaning you had a few turns of play. I have a few turns of tension on it. I am seriously considering bottling just to add to the conversation.

I also have 2 corkers to compare if I get variance.

Thanks Vinny. Will be picking up new corks today and will see if my adjustment makes any difference with them. Will let you know.