What’s wrong with whipping to degas?

[kuziwk]

Although I have the AIO wine pump I use it for everything but degassing. Racking and bottling are far more important uses for it.

For degassing, I've repurposed (or added a purpose for) the AIO Head Space Eliminator. I have an old Vacu-Vin and have combined that with the head space eliminator. I've posted about this before, with photo.

Here's the link to that post: Oct 20, 2019

It takes a few days to degas completely but I don't have to open the carboy and don't have to introduce any air or oxygen into the wine. Plus, I get a little exercise out of the process!

How many pumps does it take?

Also I thought a little bit of oxygen, such as through rackings helps with aging, why go through the trouble of vacuum racking?
Commercial wineries age in oak which also expose the wine to oxygen, this makes the wine subjectively better.

 

[Wayne Freeman]

I never count the pumps. I pump for maybe a minute or so each time, until it's bubbling pretty well. Of course, after a few days, the bubbling decreases and I have to look closer to find any bubbles. It also depends on how much head space there is. I'll do this every time I make a trip down to the basement for any reason at all, which is several times a day (the garage and freezer are on the same floor as the wine cellar). It usually takes a week or so to degas. I figure it's a more natural method, like what happens in an oak barrel due to the slight negative pressure from the wine's soaking into the wood and evaporation.

 

[DoctorCAD]

How many pumps does it take?

Also I thought a little bit of oxygen, such as through rackings helps with aging, why go through the trouble of vacuum racking?
Commercial wineries age in oak which also expose the wine to oxygen, this makes the wine subjectively better.

There is a difference between gross oxygen exposure and micro-oxidation created by the pores in an oak barrel.

 

[kuziwk]

There is a difference between gross oxygen exposure and micro-oxidation created by the pores in an oak barrel.

Right but racking from the bottom up...is it really that bad? Other than that we are not getting any other form of oxygen into a sealed up carboy. It would be cool if we had some sort of micro oxy units to mimic a barrel.

 

[Johnd]

Right but racking from the bottom up...is it really that bad? Other than that we are not getting any other form of oxygen into a sealed up carboy. It would be cool if we had some sort of micro oxy units to mimic a barrel.

The microx units you speak of already exist, they are very expensive. Barrels and flex tanks are your best bang for the buck. Flex tanks don’t provide oak taste in your wine, you must use adjuncts to do that.

 

[Amanda660]

I used to whip to degas but now just let time do it for me. I really think I'm making better wine going the slow road I also think racking my wines with my AIO has been a game-changer - swear by that piece of equipment.

 

[kuziwk]

The microx units you speak of already exist, they are very expensive. Barrels and flex tanks are your best bang for the buck. Flex tanks don’t provide oak taste in your wine, you must use adjuncts to do that.

I've heard of flex tanks, can you get them in 23L? I like the idea of having more control with the oak flavor and being able to see the level through a flex tank to know when to top up.

 

[kuziwk]

I used to whip to degas but now just let time do it for me. I really think I'm making better wine going the slow road I also think racking my wines with my AIO has been a game-changer - swear by that piece of equipment.

Yes I also bulk age without clearing agents for 10-12 months on the big reds. So you're saying I should skip degassing at all and just rack every 3 months or so? I just like to get rid of the gas so the bulk of the sediment drops out quicker.

 

[Johnd]

I've heard of flex tanks, can you get them in 23L? I like the idea of having more control with the oak flavor and being able to see the level through a flex tank to know when to top up.

Google is your friend : https://flextank.com/products-tanks.php

 

[CDrew]

Smallest flextank is 15 gallons, and smallest practical Flex tank is 30 gallons. ( I say this because you have to get to the 30 gallon Flextank to use the bottom spout sanitary fittings). There are no 5 gallon flex tanks.

You can get 5 gallon Intellitanks, but they don't really emphasize micro-oxidation. They are more like a HDPE carboy with good fittings. I use the 15 gallon Intellitanks and think they are great and a practical solution for the home wine maker.

Assuming you age 12 months and rack a few times, "degassing" is not a step you need to worry about.

The Allinone is a nice unit and really helps with racking chores even in carboys. But if that is too expensive, any vacuum pump can be made to work and do the same job. You'll just have to figure out the plumbing yourself. I have an allinone that I use and also have a hospital surplus suction pump that moves more air and thus racks things faster. But once you use vacuum to rack, you'll never do it any other way until you make big volumes and positive pressure pump it. It seems like a lot of cash at first, but after your first racking you'll realize it's worth.

But if this is all for kit wines, meant to drink young, it probably doesn't matter if you micro-oxygenate or not. Bottle at a year and they will likely be plenty "degassed".

 

[Rice_Guy]

The easiest to find 23 liter vessel is a LDPE jug as used for camping. It is rated at 8586 cc oxygen per square foot *day. For reference a Better Bottle is PET which should be 35.5 (depends on thickness) or an EVOH wine bag which is rated at 0.1 to1.9. (Bag in Box) I haven’t seen similar numbers on wood barrels.

I've heard of flex tanks, can you get them in 23L?

Note they flex so this test has a check valve. , , this is about 4 gallons squashed in the milk crate

 

[StreetGlide]

Knowing what I know now, I am so sorry I did not buy an AIO sooner. Without question I’d never be without one again. It just makes this hobby so much easier that it’s worth every penny to me.

 

[WineDad]

Although I have the AIO wine pump I use it for everything but degassing. Racking and bottling are far more important uses for it.

For degassing, I've repurposed (or added a purpose for) the AIO Head Space Eliminator. I have an old Vacu-Vin and have combined that with the head space eliminator. I've posted about this before, with photo.

Here's the link to that post: Oct 20, 2019

It takes a few days to degas completely but I don't have to open the carboy and don't have to introduce any air or oxygen into the wine. Plus, I get a little exercise out of the process!

 

[WineDad]

Yep, it was me. It's always hard for me to find this video again, but here it is. .

You won't implode one, is the bottom line.

Nope. You're. Just. Wrong.

It happened to me about 10 years ago when a 6 1/2 gallon glass carboy failed under a closed vacuum. The faith you put in a random YouTube video by some random dude who happened to NOT implode a carboy is dangerous. Neither he nor you have any grasp of the hazards involved.

I had vacuum degassed carboys many times before my incident, but this time it happened suddenly and without warning, and it failed catastrophically. Your blanket statement that it WON'T happen and anyone who says so is a LIAR are demonstrably WRONG.

Sorry, but you don't know how misinformed you are. Your 'opinion' has no basis in fact, regardless of how many YouTube videos you dredge up to 'prove' your 'belief'.

If this post seems hostile, I apologize. It's just that the risks are too great to other people's safety to let your post go unchallenged. My experience (as well as science) show the fallacy of your position.

WineDad

 

[WineDad]

Additionally, for many years, I’ve been degassing with a vacuum pump capable of pulling 29 inHg, it degasses any wine in minutes with no oxygen exposure. I’ve PERSONALLY vacuumed an empty 6 gallon glass carboy down to 29 inHg with no problems at all.

So anecdotally you've had a carboy withstand approximately 2 atm of negative pressure. Which exactly proves that you (once, according to your account) successfully depressurized an empty carboy to less than -29 psi and it didn't fail. Once. That time. One off. Random chance. Dumb luck (emphasis on 'dumb').

I had repeatedly duplicated that process many times before I imploded a carboy full of wine under less pressure. My experience proves that it can happen. Yours 'proves' that it didn't. Once.

Blindly wishing and believing it won't happen to you makes you a prime candidate for a Darwinian Award. Given the potential risk for catastrophic failure, why would you take the chance?

There are alternative ways to degas with a partial pressure that don't involve the grave personal risk involved with a closed vacuum of a glass carboy.

WineDad

 

[cmason1957]

Nope. You're. Just. Wrong.

<......>
If this post seems hostile, I apologize. It's just that the risks are too great to other people's safety to let your post go unchallenged. My experience (as well as science) show the fallacy of your position.

WineDad

Okay, so you feel I'm wrong, and you are absolutely certain it was the use of vacuum that caused the failure.

Maybe, maybe not.

Perhaps I was a bit over the top saying you can't implode them, but I didn't and I won't call anyone a Liar.

Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[Rice_Guy]

So anecdotally you've had a carboy withstand approximately 2 atm of negative pressure. . . . . . and it didn't fail. Once. That time. One off. Random chance. Dumb luck (emphasis on 'dumb').

* there is wisdom in not pushing the equipment, eventually if we go beyond design it will break and even at design spec it breaks after years of use
* need to read back a few posts to what you are referring to , , , , but it is extremely hard to go beyond one atmosphere of vacuum unless you are living in a pressure vessel as a diving chamber, , , , even with a diffusion pump in the lab.

 

[sour_grapes]

I had repeatedly duplicated that process many times before I imploded a carboy full of wine under less pressure. My experience proves that it can happen. Yours 'proves' that it didn't. Once.

I am interested in learning the details of your experience. I have also (successfully) evacuated carboys to low pressures, but I have also seen catastrophic failures with laboratory glassware due to evacuation. Therefore, although I do evacuate carboys, I am always wary. (Those laboratory cases were due to people using the wrong glassware, so not fully relevant here, other than to inform of the dangers.)

We are listening and I believe you, so you do not need to be defensive or strike out at others who contend differently. I hope that we can learn from your experience.

 

[Ajmassa]

Comin out guns blazin! Lol
Hey @WineDad - I made the comment about ‘anyone who says they have is a liar!’ Obviously that’s not meant in a literal way so don’t be so offended.

But if you insist on being hostile then direct it at me please.

And of course there’s always exceptions. But the only thing this proves is that there were extra variables involved causing it. Because under normal working conditions this DOESNT happen. I’ve pulled vacuums on countless carboys countless times. On demijohns- large glass bubbles with thin glass. On very old carboys with scratches. Small jugs. Everything.

Not just me though. 1 incident out of thousands upon thousands of accounts of carboys under a vacuum seal w/o incident. The sky is not falling. Please stop trying to put the fear of god into anyone using a vacuum pump. And try not to be so condescending while your at it.

A shame. Coulda been a nice discussion about your vacuum incident and the potential causes.

 

[WineDad]

Sorry if I came on too strong. If it's not apparent, it's a topic I feel strongly about. Ten years after the event it still rattles me to think of what could have happened. I don't want anyone else to stumble into something I should have known better not to do.

I've got more than a little experience with fluids under pressure (positive and negative). It's amazing what negative pressure can do, even to steel tanks. At least steel is high strength and will flex a little before failing. Glass is brittle and fails when deformed, usually catastrophically.

Like everyone else I've broken my share of bottles, beakers, hydrometers, thermometers, jars and jugs, usually through carelessness or inattention. That carboy imploded while doing something I'd done many times before without any indication it was unsafe or about to fail.

As I said, I should have known better. It's my hope that other's can learn from my mistake. Carboys DO break under vacuum and there's no way of knowing if, when, under what pressure or after how many cycles it might occur. To believe otherwise is simply whistling past the graveyard.

WineDad