What skins for wines from juice

[Ericphotoart]

I've ordered a few pails of Chilean juice, Diablo Rojo and Carmenere. I will pickmit up in April. This is the 2nd time I'm fermenting wine from juice from the same supplier. The last time it was CA juices and I fermented it without skins but I added oak cubes. CS is great but it need at least one more year. I wonder what kind of skins I should add to those Chilean juices. I don't think there is even a choice of skins, just grape skins what I saw on Label Peeler website. Any help in this matter. I was told at the store last time that most people who buy juices from them ferment them without skins.

 

[winemaker81]

From what I've read, grape skins are typically Merlot or Cabernet Sauvignon. I have not seen where there's really a choice.

It's likely true that most people don't ferment the buckets with skins, but until recent years, skins were not widely available. I expect most buyers may not know the option exists.

If it were me, I'd buy 1 to 2 skin packs per bucket. It will make a difference.

We are in our third year of adding pomace to either kits or juice buckets, using the pomace in place of skin packs to boost the buckets. It is a success, and while it's not what you're asking, the addition of a grape product to the bucket really enhances the wine.

 

[Ohio Bob]

I've ordered a few pails of Chilean juice, Diablo Rojo and Carmenere. I will pickmit up in April. This is the 2nd time I'm fermenting wine from juice from the same supplier. The last time it was CA juices and I fermented it without skins but I added oak cubes. CS is great but it need at least one more year. I wonder what kind of skins I should add to those Chilean juices. I don't think there is even a choice of skins, just grape skins what I saw on Label Peeler website. Any help in this matter. I was told at the store last time that most people who buy juices from them ferment them without skins.

It’s my understanding that very little flavor is in the skin itself. It’s the tannins and other compounds in the skins that are desirable. Therefore it doesn’t matter what varietal the skins came from.

Adding skins adds cost to your final wine. Some people may not want to spend the money, or deal with pressing. I don’t get much juice out of the LP skin packs so I let them drain a bit then give a hand squeeze.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I have had a box of frozen skins once last fall. Pulling the box apart it was low solids/ about 80% moisture. It had more stems than I expected. Yes as Bob just noted skins are a tannin source, I wasn’t impressed on the flavor. Labeling was poor, it didn’t say what variety or even the growing region.

 

[Ericphotoart]

My understanding is that the skins add a little bit of body to the wine and tannin of course. About 2-3 years ago I fermented a Merlot from juice concentrate (Colomafrozen) without adding skins and the final product was not great, quite flat wine. I had to make several adjustments before I was happy.
So basically I’m not looking for additional flavor by adding skins but rather more body, but at the same time I don’t want to change the characteristics of the wines I’m fermenting

 

[Ohio Bob]

My understanding is that the skins add a little bit of body to the wine and tannin of course. About 2-3 years ago I fermented a Merlot from juice concentrate (Colomafrozen) without adding skins and the final product was not great, quite flat wine. I had to make several adjustments before I was happy.
So basically I’m not looking for additional flavor by adding skins but rather more body, but at the same time I don’t want to change the characteristics of the wines I’m fermenting

Skins will add body in my opinion. Another low cost option is to divide your must into 2 buckets and use a different yeast in each, combine back anytime after SG is 1.020-1.030.

 

[Ericphotoart]

Bob, what is the benefit of this process?

 

[Ohio Bob]

Bob, what is the benefit of this process?

Different yeasts bring different elements of mouthfeel, flavor, aroma, etc. I used to make very “singular” tasting wines. They might have a good mid-palate, but perhaps not a good finish. Multiple yeasts broadens out the flavor profile.

https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/Yeast&GrapePairing(2022).pdf

See the section about multiple yeasts.

 

[Rocky]

My local supplier of juice buckets normally has lugs of the same variety of grapes. If I am buying a bucket of a bold red, I usually buy 2 lugs of the same variety of grapes. For a lighter red, I will buy one bucket. For whites, I use only the juice bucket and no grapes. This increases the cost but still a lot less than a premium kit.

In preparation, I strip the grapes from the bunch into a bucket and "crush" them with a chunk of 4x4, then pour them into the fermenting bucket. I might also add black currents and/or raisins. I make it a point to keep all stems out of the wine.

 

[winemaker81]

Bob, what is the benefit of this process?

The document Bob pointed out is a great resource -- it's better than any one yeast strain chart that I've seen. However, it's a bit outdated as it doesn't include vendors such as Renaissance. I find that reading the vendor descriptions is also useful, although more laborious as each has to be located.

The yeast/grape matches in the document are a great help. That said, keep in mind that each of the matches is someone's opinion. Educated opinions, but nevertheless, opinions.

You cannot make a bad decision -- all wine yeast strains will work for any wine. Red wine yeast is red wine yeast simply because those strains emphasize qualities commonly desired in red wines. The yeast don't care -- they eat sugar and the source is irrelevant.

Read a list, pick 2 strains that catch your fancy, and go with them. In the last few years I've used Renaissance Avante, Renaissance Bravo, and RC-212 ... because I know what they produce AND I had them in the fridge.

 

[Ohio Bob]

However, it's a bit outdated as it doesn't include vendors such as Renaissance. I find that reading the vendor descriptions is also useful, although more laborious as each has to be located.

It definitely is outdated. I traded emails with Zack and he says the chart was made “a while ago”.

Also note that it is technically not correct, maybe not wrong, but not correct either. If you look up the Scott handbook you will see yeast BA11 is unclicked for Sauvignon Blanc, yet Morewine recommends BA11 for SB. Not wrong as SB is an aromatic white, but not in Scott Labs eyes apparently.

Scott Labs also doesn’t say yeast MT is recommended for Cab, yet Morewine recommends it.

https://scottlab.com/content/files/documents/handbooks/scott labs 2024 winemaking handbook.pdf

Yeast guides start on page 16.

 

[BPL]

Different yeasts bring different elements of mouthfeel, flavor, aroma, etc. I used to make very “singular” tasting wines. They might have a good mid-palate, but perhaps not a good finish. Multiple yeasts broadens out the flavor profile.

https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/Yeast&GrapePairing(2022).pdf

See the section about multiple yeasts.

Thanks for the link. Yes it's a good resource.

What is missing from the extensive write up is actually combining yeasts. I found only one reference on the second page under The Best of all World: Blending Multiple Strains. Specifically the sentence, " Of course, the way to have your cake and eat it too is to use combinations of yeast and then blend them post fermentation." The key words are post fermentation.

Nothing else is mentioned on HOW to combine the flavors of two yeast strains.

The article mentions nothing about the compatibility of yeasts either. It is a common misconception two yeast can be used at one time and benefiting from both. That may or may not be true. It depends on the yeast used and which one will dominate (if any) the fermentation.

This article describes "killer yeasts" and the toxins involved. https://fermentis.com/en/knowledge-center/expert-insights/wine/killer-yeast/

One of the places to find out which yeast has "killer factors" is in the Scott Labs handbook. The charts starting on page 16 is a very quick reference. Scott lists which yeasts have a positive, neutral, or sensitive competitive factor. As an example pitching EC1118 and RC212 together is chancy. EC1118 has a positive killer factor, while RC212 is neutral. From testing and not going into details, EC1118 dominated a red wine fermentation when both were pitched at the same time and prepared identically.

Skins will add body in my opinion. Another low cost option is to divide your must into 2 buckets and use a different yeast in each, combine back anytime after SG is 1.020-1.030.

I like this idea, but doubtful the yeast will finish as intended. IMO, it would be better to allow the two buckets/samples to totally finish, then combine at a later time.

Barry

 

[Ohio Bob]

I like this idea, but doubtful the yeast will finish as intended. IMO, it would be better to allow the two buckets/samples to totally finish, then combine at a later time.

I have read numerous times that the flavor profile is largely formed by the time the SG gets to 1.020-1.030, after that the yeast solely generate alcohol.

That point works for me as it’s a convenient time to combine and add MLF, then airlock it for another month. My key interest is having the wine capable of generating CO2. If you let the two wines go bone dry, then combine, I fear you will allow some CO2 to escape and won’t have enough to fully protect the wine. That’s my logic for what I do.

 

[winemaker81]

Also note that it is technically not correct, maybe not wrong, but not correct either.

Who defines "correct" and why should I believe them?

Nope, I'm not busting your chops, just raising a point. Scott Labs is a good source, but I don't take any one source's opinion blindly. I trust your opinions (and that of numerous WMT members) over commercial entities. Why? 'Cuz like me, you're in the trenches and not in a laboratory.

IME, your results (and mine) are less susceptible to validation, but more likely to be useful.

Nothing else is mentioned on HOW to combine the flavors of two yeast strains.

Barry, that's because there is no correct answer. Winemaking is an art, not a science. Judgment is critical to the process. There is no one formula that works every time.

If things were different, producing 95+ point wines would happen every day.

I like this idea, but doubtful the yeast will finish as intended. IMO, it would be better to allow the two buckets/samples to totally finish, then combine at a later time.

Mathematically speaking, blending wines at 1.020 means 80% of the fermentation is complete. The last 20% is insignificant with regard to which strain controls the process. And realistically, it's completely non-determinational. There's no realistic way to know. If fermentation completes, it's a good day.

Me? I ferment to completion before blending. But I won't say Bob is wrong, since I don't know that. It makes more sense to me to complete each fermentation .... but I don't KNOW I'm right. It's just an opinion.

 

[BPL]

I have read numerous times that the flavor profile is largely formed by the time the SG gets to 1.020-1.030, after that the yeast solely generate alcohol.

If that works for you, great! Continue on with gusto.

I mostly agree with the flavor profile part and CO2 protecting the wine.

However, If the effluent (volume of effluent or effluent flow) from the fermentation is tracked from start to finish, roughly 25% of the development of wine remains at the 1.020 to 1.030 gravity time line. Depending on the starting temperature, the remaining fermentation at that point is responsible for the development of the lower temperature flavors-what ever they may be. That is assuming precise temperature control is not involved.

My point about "killer yeasts" is if incompatibility exists between two yeasts, combining two fermentations will likely promote the dominate batch and kill off the other. Of course the dominate yeast character will be promoted. The down side if that happens, the resulting must will have 1/2 of the total amount of cells necessary to finish the fermentation. My guess is there is good potential for yeast stressing.

 

[BPL]

I won't say Bob is wrong, since I don't know that

Yup, I agree. I do know about killer yeast and which one dominates a fermentation.

Lots of theory and one of the reasons why my tag line exists. :0