WineXpert Why no secondary in Pinot Noir ?

[Ajmassa]

Had a 1 gal WE world vineyard Pinot I picked up a while back and decided to make it together with an Eclipse Bravado. The Bravado gives pretty standard primary instructions, and says to transfer to carboy after 7 days and proper SG reading. Followed by 10 days before clearing and stabilizing.
BUT the Pinot primary says 15-17 days, check SG, then clearing and stabilizing. No mention of secondary. Why would they not want a transfer for secondary?? I'd prefer to transfer to glass for secondary and probably will. Unless I hear otherwise. My first time with kits.
Is there a legitimate reason for this? I know Pinot Noir can tend to be more needy or touchy than others. Anyone know why this is?

 

[ceeaton]

Had a 1 gal WE world vineyard Pinot I picked up a while back and decided to make it together with an Eclipse Bravado. The Bravado gives pretty standard primary instructions, and says to transfer to carboy after 7 days and proper SG reading. Followed by 10 days before clearing and stabilizing.
BUT the Pinot primary says 15-17 days, check SG, then clearing and stabilizing. No mention of secondary. Why would they not want a transfer for secondary?? I'd prefer to transfer to glass for secondary and probably will. Unless I hear otherwise. My first time with kits.
Is there a legitimate reason for this? I know Pinot Noir can tend to be more needy or touchy than others. Anyone know why this is?

If you have a bunch of lees (gunk) on the bottom of your fermenter, it won't hurt to rack it to a secondary container and leave those lees behind. Might be a mistake in the directions, who knows. Normal procedure, as you've followed with your Bravado, is ferment in the primary, checking SG, move when the SG stays stable for three days, leave in secondary and clarify/stabilize there.

Some actually move to the secondary when the SG hits 1.010, others let it go dry, others move at 1.000. Many ways to make good wine. Just follow your instincts. You are questioning the directions so I think you have pretty good instincts, just listen to them and do what you think is right.

 

[wineh]

That's a funny instruction set. This is what I got from WE website:

http://www.winexpert.com/pdfs/VRWV_Instructions 2015_11x17_PRESS(1).pdf
That's a more normal set of instructions for your WV kit.

 

[Ajmassa]

I'm gonna deduce that since this is the exact same kit, just 1 gallon, and the fact that the instructions say to have the primaries locked down, that WE decided to just kill 2 birds with one stone. Primary into secondary in one long step. Weird though. Still curious of the reason.
View attachment 33551
View attachment 33552
Your correct about the instincts. I read that like a slap on the face to snap me out of it. No need to overthink anything. Been making wine from juice for a lot of years taught by old school Italians: "Get juice, add yeast, dump into Demi through cheesecloth in funnel after stops fizzing, rack if ya want. Or not. Bottle in 3-6 mo. Usually 3 month so drinking over holidays. Saluté"
No hydrometers. No filters. No Secondary No spending. Always ended up with half decent wine, just Some batches better than others. And anyone given bottles always askin about the next batch. The forums great, but always enables my obsession. Haha

 

[cpfan]

That's a funny instruction set. This is what I got from WE website:

http://www.winexpert.com/pdfs/VRWV_Instructions 2015_11x17_PRESS(1).pdf
That's a more normal set of instructions for your WV kit.

To me, it's not unreasonable for the 6 gallon and 1 gallon instructions to be different. The 1 gallon kits are probably targetted at newcomers and/or apartment dwellers who would prefer a simpler process.

I'm gonna deduce that since this is the exact same kit, just 1 gallon, and the fact that the instructions say to have the primaries locked down, that WE decided to just kill 2 birds with one stone. Primary into secondary in one long step. Weird though. Still curious of the reason.
View attachment 33551
View attachment 33552
Your correct about the instincts. I read that like a slap on the face to snap me out of it. No need to overthink anything. Been making wine from juice for a lot of years taught by old school Italians: "Get juice, add yeast, dump into Demi through cheesecloth in funnel after stops fizzing, rack if ya want. Or not. Bottle in 3-6 mo. Usually 3 month so drinking over holidays. Saluté"
No hydrometers. No filters. No Secondary No spending. Always ended up with half decent wine, just Some batches better than others. And anyone given bottles always askin about the next batch. The forums great, but always enables my obsession. Haha

I see a couple of likes of this post. I like the words, but I can't like the post because the attachment links didn't work for me.

Steve

 

[Ajmassa]

It uploaded weird on my end too. With a link and not a thumbnail. Maybe now?

 

[Ajmassa]

Ok I think I answered my original question. The hard way. As always.
To reiterate :
-1 gal kit called for a 15 day primary/secondary , in bucket, lid sealed w/ airlock. Target SG at .996 or less. (6 gal instructions have 7 day primary at 1.010 or less. Then racked to 10 day secondary at .996 or less)
- instead I racked primary into secondary at day 7, ignoring the instruction. With my SG already down to .995 at this point

I am left with tons of head space (too much I think). Some space is needed for clearing and stabilizing, but I feel this is way too much. .995 and previous loose lid takes away my CO2 protection. Bubbler has action, but not much. And this is the exact reason why they say to lock lid and airlock and run to dry without racking I assume.


Planned on giving it just a few days since SG is already low. And then rack, degas, all the packets etc... which will bring that head space up to a more reasonable height. That sound about right?? First and probably last time with 1 gals. Same work. Less payoff.

 

[bkisel]

Don't know if they're still doing it but RJS low end kits (VdV) had instructions for doing the entire fermentation in "primary". I remember it confusing me when I finally bought a higher end RJS kit and having a step for racking to "secondary".

 

[wineforfun]

Ok I think I answered my original question. The hard way. As always.
To reiterate :
-1 gal kit called for a 15 day primary/secondary , in bucket, lid sealed w/ airlock. Target SG at .996 or less. (6 gal instructions have 7 day primary at 1.010 or less. Then racked to 10 day secondary at .996 or less)
- instead I racked primary into secondary at day 7, ignoring the instruction. With my SG already down to .995 at this point

I am left with tons of head space (too much I think). Some space is needed for clearing and stabilizing, but I feel this is way too much. .995 and previous loose lid takes away my CO2 protection. Bubbler has action, but not much. And this is the exact reason why they say to lock lid and airlock and run to dry without racking I assume.
View attachment 33655

Planned on giving it just a few days since SG is already low. And then rack, degas, all the packets etc... which will bring that head space up to a more reasonable height. That sound about right?? First and probably last time with 1 gals. Same work. Less payoff.

Yeah, for me, I never leave that much headspace. I would rack down to smaller vessels that will be full or top up with some like wine.

 

[bkisel]

The WE kits I've done allow for a bunch of head space so long as you bottle within their instructed time frame. If you're going to bulk age then they tell you to top off.

 

[Ajmassa]

And I eventually will top off. On both batches pictured. Right now I'm just looking to make sure I'm not wrong. I'm not so concerned with the Bravado's (the 6 gal) head space because SG is still dropping and airlock is bubbling pretty steady every few min, Protecting that head space with Co2 right?
I planned on keeping both in "secondary" for just a few days to settle. They're both already under their clearing target SGs in one week, not 15 -17 days as per directions. So I guess my question is how important is "secondary"? Because SG's tell me I can clear and stabilize now.
Am I correct in just waiting a couple days for settling and then rack off, degas, clear and stabilize (and any topping off)? Do it right away because of that headspace ? Or ride it out longer for more gross lees to drop? I do plan on bulk aging btw.
Never had instructions before this. But Feeling like this "secondary fermentation" thing is not always necessary. Please shed some light?

 

[vernsgal]

Don't know if they're still doing it but RJS low end kits (VdV) had instructions for doing the entire fermentation in "primary". I remember it confusing me when I finally bought a higher end RJS kit and having a step for racking to "secondary".

The VdV kit is gone now. They have a few new that I haven't tried but all The RJS kits I've done have you racking to secondary.They have a new one out called Mivino which is a 3 gal kit but even that one has you racking to secondary.

My 2 cents is to rack off the lees before adding clearing agents. Topping off I don't do if I have another racking planned in a 2 week period.
Kits I rack to secondary-add clearing agents after at 2 weeks rack,top off and bulk age for 3-6 months minimum

 

[Ajmassa]

So while in secondary, do you use a rule of thumb as to WHEN you rack and hit with clearing agents? After SG has stopped for a couple days?

 

[vernsgal]

I always wait until I'm dry (3 consecutive days of the same SG) then rack.I then add clearing agents and wait 2 weeks( not to exact.It depends on my day plans lol) before reracking.I'm never worried about taking off a few days earlier because I'm not bottling at this stage and lees can continue to settle

 

[Putterrr]

If you do enough kits and your fermenting environment is consistent, you will find that kits are fairly predictable. Apart from taking a reading on one kit recently that someone asked specifically about finishing SG, I haven't taken final readings for SG in many years. I use the 7-21-42 day method. 7 days in the primary (or till SG is around 1.000), rack - 14 days in the secondary (winery temps around 70), rack-degas-clear - 21 days to clear before racking for long term storage. No need to over think things.

cheers

 

[Ajmassa]

Ok. That's the info I was looking for. As long as my SG has stopped for at least 3 days, waiting 5 days, 10 days, or 14 days is just preference until racking again and agents depending on certain variables.
And then another 3-4 weeks to clear until rack and bulk age. And I don't need to sweat the headspace until I go to bulk age.
I've never used anything besides k-meta and time prior to the kits.
Primary - 1 week
Secondary (never called it that)- 2 weeks
Clearing for 1 month
Bulk with k-meta and topping off
I'm looking forward to doing more kits and figuring out "my way" as well as integrating new techniques learned from kits into my seasonal juice. Chilean right around the corner! I plan on seeking out different Chilean suggestions when the time comes

 

[Putterrr]

I don't top up going to secondary but do top up after clearing. (my day 21 to 42 time frame). also top again for bulk aging

cheers