Other Why the best kits are not you typical wine?

[Xlev]

Hi

I have been looking at the winemakermag competition results for kit wine through the years. What I have noticed and that a majority of wines in the top 10 are some kind of dessert wines,or ice wine, mango, peach,creme brulee etc year after year. What is the reason for that do you think? Why is the quality of the grape wines not better I wonder?

Here are the competition results from 2022
https://winemakermag.com/article/top-100-wine-kits-of-2022

 

[winemaker81]

Based upon my experiences, it's the quality of the judges.

Many moons ago I was a preliminary judge at the New York State Fair amateur wine competition. Most of the judges came from American Wine Society chapters, so we should have had a good understanding of judging wines. Unfortunately, far too many didn't do a good job. We were instructed that a strong sulfite smell was not grounds to downgrade a wine, yet several of the judges did so anyway. Their personal preferences were more important than the instructions.

I've been told at numerous wineries that folks claim they are dry wine drinkers, yet they purchase sweet wines.

This is among the reasons why I don't enter competitions, nor do I pay much attention to results.

 

[She’sgonnakillme]

Sweet wines also tend to hide many flaws in a wine.

 

[BernardSmith]

Majority, perhaps, but in the top 20 I see a Riesling, a Pinot Gris, a Grenache Tannat Shiraz, Gewurtztraminer and a Cab sauv - five basic grape wines.

 

[Rice_Guy]

1) In the US market the biggest sales are table wines. Sugar sells! The US market puts lots of sugar and salt in the food supply so there will be a bias toward what one is used to.
2) as winemaker noted judges are not reliable. With the 2022 contest I had a cyser in three contests and had a first (I labeled cinnamon as an ingredient in that contest and one judge noted a nice cinnamon) a second place, and a third (I did don’t label cinnamon in this contest therefore one judge commented about a spicy note like cinnamon). I like the comments judges write more than the placing. (On that cyser I thought cinnamon was excessive)
3) there is a bias for judging order, the last one will place first more often
4) on the product development bench it is easier to create a wonderful “super” rice, than one which already is in the culture like “Spanish” rice or “teriyaki “ rice or “”long grain and wild” rice. , , , , what one remembers about grandma influences what tastes good. , , , ie a fanciful kit is easier to do well than a “xx“ red wine.
5) sugar is magic, doing bench trials on a peach/rhubarb I was surprised that at low sugar it smelled like green peaches from the store and at high sugar it smelled like very ripe juicy peach.
6) early judging determines the first place/ technically good wine among similar dry wines or sweet wines or fruit wines etc. The best of show judging only looks for what is more pleasing among different beverages. One has to step back and ask if we have three choices, ,, a technically good dry red wine, a technically good white and a sweet high aromatics tropical fruit, ,,, which would you get a second glass of. BUT the best of show really has ten choices with names like Starbucks caramel coffee and English cider etc

 

[winemaker81]

I was a preliminary judge at the NY State Fair two years in a row. Both times I had a similar experience. Of the 60-70 wines tasted, about 10 were REALLY good, 10 were really bad, and most were in the middle. I tried to provide useful feedback, but it's admittedly far more difficult when tasting that many wines, as opposed to tasting 5 to 8 at a typical wine tasting.

Both years the judges at my table set aside the remainder of a few very good bottles -- the plan was to enjoy a glass after the tasting. Two things came to light.

1) I felt fine, until I stood up after the tasting, when I realized I was pretty well lit. I didn't swallow any wine, and ate a year's worth of crackers between wines to keep the palate clean. But after tasting 60+ wines I had swallowed enough drops and absorbed enough through the tissues of my mouth to have it creep up on me. I was the norm -- I recall one guy got halfway up and fell heavily back in the chair. The guys who didn't spit were in rough shape.

2) I poured half a glass of a reserved wine, and very sadly, I couldn't taste it. It was like a switch was flipped, I went from being a conscientious taster to having no functioning taste buds. This made me question how accurately I judged the final 10 or 15 wines.

3) there is a bias for judging order, the last one will place first more often

My experiences prove this, at least to myself.

"Professional" tasters build up to this -- for me and the other judges, well, it was like we were thrown into the deep end of the pool. Most of us had at least a few years of wine judging via the AWS meetings, but we were not prepared for that many wines.

I'm going to check into the NC State Fair wine competition -- it would be fun to judge again. But this time I understand the need for training, so I'll prep myself with daily wine tastings.

 

[Rocky]

I know I have posted this before, but it is still amusing and I feel apropos when discussing wine tasting, ratings and judges, etc. Lorre's last line sums up my feelings precisely.

 

[winemaker81]

I know I have posted this before, but it is still amusing and I feel apropos when discussing wine tasting, ratings and judges, etc. Lorre's last line sums up my feelings precisely.

Peter Lorre portrayed entertaining characters.

If I tasted wines like he did in that movie, I'd be bombed out of my gourde by wine 10.

 

[vinny]

I'm going to check into the NC State Fair wine competition -- it would be fun to judge again. But this time I understand the need for training, so I'll prep myself with daily wine tastings.

41 years and still so much dedication.

Outstanding!

 

[vinny]

I know I have posted this before, but it is still amusing and I feel apropos when discussing wine tasting, ratings and judges, etc. Lorre's last line sums up my feelings precisely.

Well, at least I have been doing one thing right.

Now, I just gotta find part 2 to see how the tasting ended..

 

[ChuckD]

But this time I understand the need for training, so I'll prep myself with daily wine tastings.

To be the best you gotta train hard!

 

[sour_grapes]

Now, I just gotta find part 2 to see how the tasting ended..

You may recognize that this is based on Edgar Allan Poe's short story A Cask of Amontillado. But the thing I find curious is that Vincent Price's character is named "Fortunato Lucchresi." In the short story, the Lorre character does not have a name, but there are two other characters, one named Fortunato, the other Lucchesi.

 

[Xlev]

But when the judges taste the wine,are they only looking at flaws or also the taste? Do they care if a sangiovese tastes like a sangiovese or just how well is it made?Is it oxidized,does it have H2S etc?

 

[winemaker81]

But when the judges taste the wine,are they only looking at flaws or also the taste? Do they care if a sangiovese tastes like a sangiovese or just how well is it made?Is it oxidized,does it have H2S etc?

I can't speak of other competitions, but the NY State Fair used the AWS rating system, as most of the judges were AWS members. This is available in PDF and Excel on the AWS site, and I listed it below.

You pointed out another flaw in amateur judging -- do the judges know the wine type? If I was judging Loganberry wine, I'd have to go by what I know, as I've never had a loganberry in any form. The same applies to a judge who has never had Foch.

My comments identify the negatives I experienced, but overall judging was a great experience. 95% of the judges were doing their best to be fair, and the guys who administered the event answered questions and offered advice.

Our job as preliminary judges was to identify the wines that should go to the finals where professionals made the final judging. We also provided written feedback on the wines we tasted. The best and worst got the best feedback, as the wines were easy to describe. The majority in the middle of the pack? These wines were "good" (see below, "good" in all categories is a 13), with nothing that really stood out. Don't get me wrong, I'd cheerfully drink all the wines in this range, but providing useful feedback was tough.


AWS Evaluation Criteria

APPEARANCE
3 - Excellent - Brilliant with outstanding characteristic color.
2 - Good - Clear with characteristic color.
1 - Poor - Slight haze and/or slight off color.
0 - Objectionable - Cloudy and/or off color.

AROMA AND BOUQUET
6 - Extraordinary - Unmistakable characteristic aroma of grape-variety or winetype. Outstanding and complex bouquet. Exceptional balance of aroma and bouquet.
5 - Excellent - Characteristic aroma. Complex bouquet. Well balanced.
4 - Good - Characteristic aroma. Distinguishable bouquet.
3 - Acceptable - Slight aroma and bouquet. Pleasant.
2 - Deficient - No perceptible aroma or bouquet or with slight off odors.
1 - Poor - Off odors.
0 - Objectionable - Objectionable or offensive odors.

TASTE AND TEXTURE
6 - Extraordinary - Unmistakable characteristic flavor of grape-variety or winetype. Extraordinary balance. Smooth, full-bodied and overwhelming.
5 - Excellent - All of the above but a little less. Excellent but not overwhelming.
4 - Good - Characteristic grape-variety or wine-type flavor. Good balance. Smooth. May have minor imperfections.
3 - Acceptable - Undistinguished wine but pleasant. May have minor off flavors. May be slightly out of balance, and/or somewhat thin or rough.
2 - Deficient - Undistinguished wine with more pronounced faults than above.
1 - Poor - Disagreeable flavors, poorly balanced, and/or unpleasant texture.
0 - Objectionable - Objectionable or offensive flavors and/or texture.

AFTERTASTE
3 - Excellent - Lingering outstanding aftertaste.
2 - Good - Pleasant aftertaste.
1 - Poor - Little or no distinguishable aftertaste.
0 - Objectionable - Unpleasant aftertaste.

OVERALL IMPRESSION
2 - Excellent
1 - Good
0 - Poor

TOTAL SCORES
18 - 20 Extraordinary
15 - 17 Excellent
12 - 14 Good
9 - 11 Commercially Acceptable
6 - 8 Deficient
0 - 5 Poor and Objectionable

 

[Xlev]

Excellent thank you for your reply,now I have a better idea on what they are looking for

 

[Rice_Guy]

going to check into the NC State Fair wine competition -- it would be fun to judge again. But this time I understand the need for training, so I'll prep myself with daily wine tastings.

I encourage you, (you’all) to do judging. You will find the less common problems when you look at lots of samples. You will get better at making your own wines when you see what the choices are. It is work and unfortunately we can always use extra judges and judges in training at contest time.

Wine Maker Magazine had an article in November 22 about judging. It notes oxidized and reductive flavors were most common. (in the vinters club reductive gets names like fried chicken or my wife’s hair perm) ,,,, the yeast are telling you what they want to be healthy by the flavors they excrete.

 

[joeswine]

It’s all subjective to one’s taste , I think

 

[winemanden]

It’s all subjective to one’s taste , I think

Joe, I've done wine judging for a few club competitions (amateur), it's hard not to be subjective when you taste a wine that you like. You just have to try and follow the competition rules. One thing I always did, was to go back to number one and re-taste it again. Sometimes I had to change my markings.
I'm no expert, far from it, but I can tell a good wine from an indifferent one.
I sniff, swirl, roll it round my tongue, but if I wasn't judging, I was more like Peter Lorre.
Like most of the folk on the forum, I enjoy making wine, I enjoy drinking it more than tasting it!

 

[sour_grapes]

You may recognize that this is based on Edgar Allan Poe's short story A Cask of Amontillado. But the thing I find curious is that Vincent Price's character is named "Fortunato Lucchresi." In the short story, the Lorre character does not have a name, but there are two other characters, one named Fortunato, the other Lucchesi.

I don't know what I was thinking. In the middle of the night, it came to me that in A Cask of Amontillado, Peter Lorre's character is named Montresor. I think I mixed him up with a nameless first-person narrator in a different story...

 

[winemaker81]

I don't know what I was thinking. In the middle of the night, it came to me that in A Cask of Amontillado, Peter Lorre's character is named Montresor. I think I mixed him up with a nameless first-person narrator in a different story...

Poe can be disturbing (and was probably disturbed), so the mistake is not surprising .....