Wild Fermentation Is the Sexiest, Least Understood Technique in Winemaking

[mainshipfred]

You make this sound like it's parachuting or bunji jumping. People stick needles in their arms just to say they did it? It's just wine making. Some of us want to understand and learn by experimenting and experiencing. I have followed all the "so called' rules of modern wine making to ensure I have the best probability of making a decent wine. But the reason I want to experiment is to figure out for myself what rules or guidelines are "urban legends".

Absolutely couldn't agree more. I like the urban legend analogy.

 

[Scooter68]

While comparing "sharing needles" to using wild yeast to ferment wine may be a little over the top, your subject line might likewise over the top.

I Cannot imagine how using wild yeast could be 'sexy' (And I've been accused of having a very vivid imagination).

And wild yeast is well understood. That precisely why 'domestic' yeasts were developed. Wine makers over many years have learned that using wild yeast is a risky process - This isn't like picking wild berries, because with very little learning one can recognize edible versus inedible berries. With wild yeast, you cannot even identify the yeast to know what is present without culturing it and a study of the yeast before starting a fermentation.

Along with that you are also permitting bacteria into a high sugar/food source environment and hoping that as the fermentation progresses, those bacteria will be killed by the alcohol. Again unfortunately not all bacteria are killed by alcohol.

This not to call your ideas dumb or irresponsible, but I would also not consider 'use' of wild yeast a proposition that should be considered highly desirable or low risk, especially in our world today where bacteria and viruses are mutating and becoming resistant to traditional treatments. Hitting a wine must with SO2 is a step taken for more than just the elimination of wild yeast, it's also a step taken to protect the wine just as we wash and sanitize our equipment and bottles before allowing them in contact with our wine.

Today I think home wine makers want not only to try something new but they want to make a good safe wine and be able to repeat that process again if they like their results. The latter could be pretty difficult with wild yeast.

 

[Ajmassa]

While comparing "sharing needles" to using wild yeast to ferment wine may be a little over the top, your subject line might likewise over the top.
I Cannot imagine how using wild yeast could be 'sexy' (And I've been accused of having a very vivid imagination).

That’s just the title of the article quoted and posted.
I’m pretty sure nobody is arguing any points here. And we all know the risks involved- which is why we don’t tend to do it. But reading an intriguing article gets you thinking. Sorta like wanting to join the Airforce after watching TopGun for the 1st time. To do it once on a juice pail or something would be interesting.
Especially when your making many batches throughout the year- throwing caution to the wind on a juice pail or small grape batch just for the fun of it just to keep it interesting. For some reason those juice pails (ones which NO yeast is added) tend to take off on their own easily. My family made many pails without adding yeast. (Tho they didn’t check any levels at all either).
If it stalls, has issues, or goes south? No biggie. Those risks are known. If it turns out successful? Then great. Gives an excuse to give it another go. Either way I don’t think anyone is looking to completely abandon commercial yeast.

 

[mainshipfred]

That’s just the title of the article quoted and posted.
I’m pretty sure nobody is arguing any points here. And we all know the risks involved- which is why we don’t tend to do it. But reading an intriguing article gets you thinking. Sorta like wanting to join the Airforce after watching TopGun for the 1st time. To do it once on a juice pail or something would be interesting.
Especially when your making many batches throughout the year- throwing caution to the wind on a juice pail or small grape batch just for the fun of it just to keep it interesting. For some reason those juice pails (ones which NO yeast is added) tend to take off on their own easily. My family made many pails without adding yeast. (Tho they didn’t check any levels at all either).
If it stalls, has issues, or goes south? No biggie. Those risks are known. If it turns out successful? Then great. Gives an excuse to give it another go. Either way I don’t think anyone is looking to completely abandon commercial yeast.

AJ, you feeling OK, it appears you were choosing your words with caution. LOL But you are correct that the other posters thinking of giving it a try are not abandoning commercial yeasts and simply experimenting with the concept.

 

[JimInNJ]

For anyone joining late, the question is: Which is more risky, spontaneous fermentation, or bungee jumping without a parachute while having unprotected *** with a partner who shares needles?

 

[mainshipfred]

For anyone joining late, the question is: Which is more risky, spontaneous fermentation, or bungee jumping without a parachute while having unprotected *** with a partner who shares needles?

At least you understood the OP. LOL

 

[pete1325]

When I first started making wine (from grapes) with a bunch of Italian fellows we never added commercial yeast. It was all old school......picked up grapes on Saturday, crush/de-stem on Monday, leave in huge vats punching down the caps twice a day for a week and press on Sunday. Racked periodically and bulk aged for 6 month to a year. Never had a batch go bad. However, nowadays I add commercial yeast and MLB which I think in the end makes a better wine......at least that's what I've been told.

 

[pgentile]

LOL, The title of my post was the title of the article referenced. I just wanted to discuss yeast both wild and tame.

 

[mainshipfred]

LOL, The title of my post was the title of the article referenced. I just wanted to discuss yeast both wild and tame.

I'm still holding in laughs from @JimInNJ post. It would be too hard to explain it to others.

 

[pgentile]

I'm still holding in laughs from @JimInNJ post. It would be too hard to explain it to others.

Cracked me up, but "bungee jumping without a parachute while having unprotected *** with a partner who shares needles" is whole other forum on a slightly different website.

 

[Ajmassa]

For anyone joining late, the question is: Which is more risky, spontaneous fermentation, or bungee jumping without a parachute while having unprotected *** with a partner who shares needles?

True story. I once went “parachuting” without a bungee. With my future wife. Drank homemade wild yeast fermented “family red” wine that night. Followed by unprotected adult relations.
The skydiving was intense and exhilarating. The *** was “hotel style” mind blowing. But the wine was mediocre at best.
Given the chance I’d do it all again and not change a thing... except maybe toss my dad a packet of RC 212 this time.

 

[ceeaton]

AJ, you feeling OK, it appears you were choosing your words with caution.

Fred, AJ's feeling better now!

 

[Ajmassa]

I just piggybacked JimInNJ’s post. To be fair though I can’t blame that on the wild yeast since that old style has more variables. Aside from a packet of RC212, also needed would be a hydrometer, and a convo about gross lees and headspace. And so2. And aging.

 

[JimInNJ]

But the wine was mediocre at best.

He remembers the wine. In any other crowd that would probably be seen as odd.

 

[Scooter68]

Ah Hah - A Media title - that splains it. Some author desperate for a title for his article and knew that anything with *** in the title would capture some eyeballs. Sneaky media tricks.

I'll pass on anything involving bungees. Had a friend lose an eye when a bungee popped lose on a load, came over the top of the car roof and caught his eye. How's that for graphic violence? (And way off topic.)

Understand, Now about those those needles...

 

[Ajmassa]

I listen to this podcast once in a while. Native ferments were a topic recently and I was surprised to learn that it is not uncommon. The Napa winemaker- with YAN known and already knowing his grapes so well-said he’s able to carefully feed proper nutrients along the way to ensure a healthy and complete ferment to 14%. (Another episode he talks about wines over 14.12% or something brings the winery into a higher tax bracket) And adding cultured yeast is just an unnecessary step and expense.
Much more risky for the homewinemaker- but still very interesting to hear him talk about native ferments with confidence. https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast...th-jim-duane/id906249753?mt=2&i=1000384064128
(The episode about ph and TA is another great listen too)

 

[BernardSmith]

I listen to this podcast once in a while. Native ferments were a topic recently and I was surprised to learn that it is not uncommon. The Napa winemaker- with YAN known and already knowing his grapes so well-said he’s able to carefully feed proper nutrients along the way to ensure a healthy and complete ferment to 14%. (Another episode he talks about wines over 14.12% or something brings the winery into a higher tax bracket) And adding cultured yeast is just an unnecessary step and expense.
Much more risky for the homewinemaker- but still very interesting to hear him talk about native ferments with confidence. https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast...th-jim-duane/id906249753?mt=2&i=1000384064128
(The episode about ph and TA is another great listen too)

Whoa Nelly! The risk to a home wine maker using indigenous yeast would seem to be so much less than the risk to a commercial winery. Worst case, we lose a few dollars and mark it up to "experience". The winery loses its income if it cannot sell its wine and worse, perhaps, its reputation, if it does sell it and customers pour it down the drain as undrinkable.

 

[Ajmassa]

Whoa Nelly! The risk to a home wine maker using indigenous yeast would seem to be so much less than the risk to a commercial winery. Worst case, we lose a few dollars and mark it up to "experience". The winery loses its income if it cannot sell its wine and worse, perhaps, its reputation, if it does sell it and customers pour it down the drain as undrinkable.

I assume this winemaker, who’s worked at a few big name wineries, started doing native ferments at a place that was already doing it. So they are already ‘in the know’ as to what the natural yeast is capable of.

 

[mainshipfred]

I'm sure they minimize the risk and as much as I hate to say it, I think they know more then us. LOL

 

[4score]

I have a twist to this thread. I have also been firmly in the camp of only using commercial yeasts. I've even further limited my commercial choice to Renaissance Andante, a carefully made breakthrough yeast that eliminates any possibility of H2S. So, getting to that point, why would I want to abandon this and try wild yeast? I was reading about this last year and just never did anything, but this year I'm tempted to try commercial non-saccharomyces yeast. Chr Hansen makes a few options here. The theory is that these yeasts will grow for 1 to 3 days, barely invoking any alcohol fermentation, but they are actively dominating any "wild" yeast strains and imparting their own characteristics that you may not be fully achieving with your regular fermentation yeast. They have three non-sacc yeast options; FrootZen is known for increasing the fruitiness characteristics and used often with whites - Concerto is known for amplifying red fruit or strawberry while manufacturing lactic acid to increase acidity and lower pH - Prelude is a heavy producer of polysaccharides and helps to promote fuller body and mouthfeel while imparting dark fruit character, like plum. Another bonus is that these non-sacc yeasts are also big oxygen scavengers and act as protection. You add them immediately upon crush and leave things for 1 to 3 days, the longer you wait before adding your normal yeast, supposedly the more pronounced the attributes. As your regular yeast takes off, they quickly overwhelm these non-sacc ones.

So, it seems you can capture some of the positive "wild" attributes while still enjoying the protection of a controlled commercial yeast ferment. I'm thinking of trying this on a barrel of Cab-Franc this season, using the Prelude yeast before my normal Andante.