Yeast Nutrients

[jamesannie]

Thanks for this message.

 

[Johnd]

@brianwattsturkeycalls_3_t Pretty old thread (started in 2013) with some more recent responses in the last few posts, but some of us are still around, feel free to ask if you have any questions.......

 

[Raptor99]

I am about to start my first batch of mead, so this thread has been helpful reading. I found a good calculator to determine the amount of nutrients to add according to a nutrient schedule.

Once I make a basic mead, I want to try a melomel. The fruit will probably contribute some YAN and other nutrients, but I don't have a way to measure that. For those who make melomels, do you just ignore the presence of the fruit and calculate the nutrient amounts as though the fruit was not present?

 

[dmw_chef]

I am about to start my first batch of mead, so this thread has been helpful reading. I found a good calculator to determine the amount of nutrients to add according to a nutrient schedule.

Once I make a basic mead, I want to try a melomel. The fruit will probably contribute some YAN and other nutrients, but I don't have a way to measure that. For those who make melomels, do you just ignore the presence of the fruit and calculate the nutrient amounts as though the fruit was not present?

It really depends on your fruit load. Low fruit loads; 1-3 lbs/gallon, I'd mostly ignore it, perhaps offset 50ppm YAN. Higher than that, you may want to offset up to 150ppm YAN.

I posted a recipe for a dry traditional I have used with success here:

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/suggestions-for-adding-some-body-to-mead.72638/post-778514
the sweet mead recipe I linked in the post is decent, but is targeted at absolute beginners and can improved, if you're interested, I can provide some pointers.

A friend of mine who is very knowledgable about nutrition in meads actually released a video today about calculating nutes for superfruit meads today:



This was created as part of the r/mead subreddit monthly challenge which is a superfruit mel; a friend who is an expert superfruit meadmaker also has a nice write up:

 

[Raptor99]

@dmw_chef Thanks for posting this. I found the video to be very helpful. I found the spreadsheet last week, so I have been working with that too.

It seems like the answer to my question is to make an estimate of the amount of organic YAN provided by the fruit. He gives us a good ballpark figure to go by in the post quoted above: "I would suggest for starters to lower your YAN by 100ppm at 4lbs/gal and 150ppm and 6lbs/gal."

It seems like it is better to be conservative in estimating the amount of YAN in the fruit. If the total YAN is a little bit too high that is probably better than it being too low.

 

[Khristyjeff]

@Johnd

I've got an Amarone bucket started 10/13, divided into 2 fermenters, and pitched BMX 4x4 (nutrient hog) in one and 71B (14% alcohol tolerance) in the other. I was getting a little odor out of the 71B bucket 5 days later so added Fermaid K which seemed to help. On Oct. 22, after they were done (0.998 or lower), I combined and racked into 1 carboy. Have checked (smelled) them a couple times and all was good until today it has a little rotten egg smell.

I splash racked to another carboy to see if that helps but wondered if I should be adding anything to it at this stage. Thanks.

 

[Johnd]

@Johnd

I've got an Amarone bucket started 10/13, divided into 2 fermenters, and pitched BMX 4x4 (nutrient hog) in one and 71B (14% alcohol tolerance) in the other. I was getting a little odor out of the 71B bucket 5 days later so added Fermaid K which seemed to help. On Oct. 22, after they were done (0.998 or lower), I combined and racked into 1 carboy. Have checked (smelled) them a couple times and all was good until today it has a little rotten egg smell.

I splash racked to another carboy to see if that helps but wondered if I should be adding anything to it at this stage. Thanks.

At .998, and that much time, you’re done, I wouldn’t risk any additions. If you haven’t sulfited, and aren’t doing MLF, it’s probably time. Keep up the sulfite levels, and do another splash rack or two, the sulfite will keep the wine safe. If you still have some gross lees / sediment in there, you’ll get them out of the mix as well.

Most fermentations, it seems to me, at some point, get a little off smell of some sort, so I wouldn’t be too worried. Get those couple extra racking in during the next couple months, manage sulfite, all should be well.

 

[Khristyjeff]

Thank you!

 

[Tim3]

So much great information on here. I've also had some issues with H2S and really appreciated the insights many of you shared on this thread. For my own benefit (encountered H2S once from an incomplete nutrient program) I compiled what you've shared and cross compared with some source material, like Scottslab, Lallemand, etc, to create an easier to use calculator than I could find elsewhere, and have shared that in the .zip file on this message in case anyone else finds it useful. From what I've researched the nutrient program is based on the relationships between Brix, starting YAN, yeast choice, and must volume, which are the only inputs required (color coded in orange). Once you have those variables I created logic given best practice to produce a recommended nutrient program for a complete and healthy fermentation.

In my research DAP has gotten a bad reputation. And when your YAN deficit is high enough it seems to be the expert opinion to add DAP for nitrogen instead of overloading your must with vitamin and mineral heavy Fermaid O and K. Though it's okay to end up with a slight nitrogen deficit so withhold that last addition of DAP unless you smell H2S.

 

[zappoid]

Summarizing all above: in case I do the same batch, may I use previous batch gross lees as both yeast starter (pied de cuve) and extra source of nutrition?

 

[Bmd2k1]

Great info!

I'm curious what folks are using these days -- for kits or otherwise... (so far I've only made kits)

- If you make a yeast starter (I use GoFerm -- unless it's an FWK and then I use whatever they provide - it might be DAP -- someone I'm sure will chime in...)

- Nutrient additions during fermentation (I use FermaidO -- at 48hrs post yeast pitch)


Cheers!

 

[BigDaveK]

Great info!

I'm curious what folks are using these days -- for kits or otherwise... (so far I've only made kits)

- If you make a yeast starter (I use GoFerm -- unless it's an FWK and then I use whatever they provide - it might be DAP -- someone I'm sure will chime in...)

- Nutrient additions during fermentation (I use FermaidO -- at 48hrs post yeast pitch)


Cheers!

My thought is that nutrient should be added at the very beginning. At first the yeast are multiplying and we want them as healthy and robust as possible.

If I'm making a dessert wine and step feeding I'll add a half dose or so of nutrient mid-way for the heck of it.

A yeast starter is always a good idea. If nothing else it tells you the yeast are active.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

I am pretty consistent (in wines made from grapes, red or white):

- Starter culture made with Goferm
- 20g/hL Fermaid-O at 3 brix drop
- 20g/hL Fermaid-O at 1/3 brix drop
So if I start at, say, 24 brix, I'll do my fermaid adds at 21 and 16 brix (or thereabouts, depending on what my daily brix/temps look like).

I guess I might up the dosage of Fermaid if I knew that YAN was extremely low, but otherwise I don't mess with it.

 

[winemaker81]

I'm curious what folks are using these days -- for kits or otherwise

For FWK, I use the included starter and nutrients. For everything else I use Fermax.

In the past I simply rehydrated the yeast and added nutrient when mixing the must.

Now? I make an overnight starter, add 2/3 of the nutrient at mix, and the remaining 1/3 forty-eight hours after inoculation. Since my last encounter with H2S, if a yeast is listed as high nutrition requirements, I'll add an addition 25% to the overall amount of nutrient.

If a kit includes a high nutrient yeast, I will assume the vendor added sufficient nutrient.

 

[ChuckD]

Starter culture made with Goferm
- 20g/hL Fermaid-O at 3 brix drop
- 20g/hL Fermaid-O at 1/3 brix drop

I assume hL is hectoliters? So that would be 0.02g/l

A thousand liters is a big tank-O-wine!

 

[sour_grapes]

I assume hL is hectoliters? So that would be 0.02g/l

A thousand liters is a big tank-O-wine!

"Hecto" means 100.

I always just assume my carboy is ~25 L, or 1/4 of a hL, in doing my dosage calculations.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

I assume hL is hectoliters? So that would be 0.02g/l

Yes, hL = hectoliters. But 1 hL = 100L, so 20g/hL = 20g/100L = 0.2g/L.

 

[ChuckD]

Yes, hL = hectoliters. But 1 hL = 100L, so 20g/hL = 20g/100L = 0.2g/L.

Doh

Only off by one decimal place… no biggie

 

[cmason1957]

Doh

Only off by one decimal place… no biggie

Damn decimal points. What's a ten among friends?

 

[BarrelMonkey]

Doh

Only off by one decimal place… no biggie

I always have to look it up. Don't ask how many times I've typed '1hL in L' into Google...