Zinfandel grapes -> wine! A new member's introduction via a 75L of red deliciousness.

[tjmeyer]

Ok team! Added the following:
2g Lallzyme EX + 12g opti-red + 200g vineyard well water
I completely forgot to take pictures of this! For those that are new, this is VERY simple. I grabbed a clean kitchen glass, put it on a food scale that measures to the tenth (0.1 sensitivity), zeroed it out and started with the lightest thing. Added 2g Lallzyme EX, zeroed, added 12g opti-red, zeroed, added 200g mineral water. Never used distilled water on must.

mixed, then added to must. Also added two handfuls of medium oak cuts. At this point, we're probably ok to split the batch, but I'm going to leave it all together right up until it's time to pitch.

If anyone can think of anything else that we should do now, please speak up! This is a learning process, no bad suggestions, unless it is, then you'll learn something lol.

 

[Brant]

Ok team! Added the following:
2g Lallzyme EX + 12g opti-red + 200g vineyard well water
I completely forgot to take pictures of this! For those that are new, this is VERY simple. I grabbed a clean kitchen glass, put it on a food scale that measures to the tenth (0.1 sensitivity), zeroed it out and started with the lightest thing. Added 2g Lallzyme EX, zeroed, added 12g opti-red, zeroed, added 200g mineral water. Never used distilled water on must.

mixed, then added to must. Also added two handfuls of medium oak cuts. At this point, we're probably ok to split the batch, but I'm going to leave it all together right up until it's time to pitch.

If anyone can think of anything else that we should do now, please speak up! This is a learning process, no bad suggestions, unless it is, then you'll learn something lol.

i typically use RO water for my wine kits. what is the issue with distilled water in must?

 

[tjmeyer]

i typically use RO water for my wine kits. what is the issue with distilled water in must?

Yeast osmosis. If you decrease the minerals in the must too much, the moisture inside the yeast cell wall will begin to leech out, causing issues. Small amounts of distilled water won't likely cause an issue, but it's just a generally understood thing among winemakers, I guess. I've always been told the same.

I think adding distilled water to a juice concentration kit will likely ruin your fermentation.

 

[Brant]

Yeast osmosis. If you decrease the minerals in the must too much, the moisture inside the yeast cell wall will begin to leech out, causing issues. Small amounts of distilled water won't likely cause an issue, but it's just a generally understood thing among winemakers, I guess. I've always been told the same.

I think adding distilled water to a juice concentration kit will likely ruin your fermentation.

if this is your opinion on distilled water, wouldn't you feel the same about RO water? it too has little to no minerals remaining.

additionally, since you are adding only 200ml of water before pitch, wouldn't such a small amount of water combine with the minerals, sugars, etc. from the grape must and this be non-issue?

this has always been my thought process along having mineralized water or not. additionally, i know many people on this forum use distilled water exclusively in their kit wine production.

curious on your thoughts.

 

[Brant]

I think adding distilled water to a juice concentration kit will likely ruin your fermentation.

also, what do you mean by ruin your fermentation? can you clarify this?

 

[tjmeyer]

All great questions. I'll do my best to answer but I'm also passing on my teachers' thoughts which may or may not be archaic to some.

additionally, since you are adding only 200ml of water before pitch, wouldn't such a small amount of water combine with the minerals, sugars, etc. from the grape must and this be non-issue?

You're completely right. I very much doubt it would bother 20 gallons of must. It's more the principle of thing that I've always been taught.

if this is your opinion on distilled water, wouldn't you feel the same about RO water? it too has little to no minerals remaining.

It's absolutely possible. Reverse osmosis is more or less distilling. Any small, trace amounts of minerals goes a long way. Absolutely ZERO minerals, is very high pressure for yeast to operate in.

i know many people on this forum use distilled water exclusively in their kit wine production.

It's probably fine if their kit concentrates are made through evaporation. The minerals of the original must are still in there. If they are made with RO, I am unsure! I'm not familiar with a lot of kits, I'd just follow the directions I guess. If it says use distilled water, then it'll be fine. But keep in mind that distilled water is also lacking "free" oxygen.

Edit: I would be very surprised to see kits direct you to use distilled water. Not because it couldn't be prepared in a way to allow for that, but because it's a bad thing to teach new winemakers and would cause confusion down the road. If I added distilled anything to wine and my uncle caught me? Ooooooooooo boy... I'd be in trouble.

also, what do you mean by ruin your fermentation? can you clarify this?

Here's a good article: https://homebrewing.org/pages/fermentation-failure-using-distilled-water

 

[tjmeyer]

also, what do you mean by ruin your fermentation? can you clarify this?

To illustrate this, the best way is to make two yeast starters with the all ingredients and process being the same. Just swap out tap water and distilled water for each. Record the differences. The distilled water starter will be sluggish or may fail completely. It's a good learning experiment!

Edit: the yeast strain will also have varying levels of resistance to low oxygen, low mineral environments. A happy yeast is a happy wine, however!

 

[Brant]

To illustrate this, the best way is to make two yeast starters with the all ingredients and process being the same. Just swap out tap water and distilled water for each. Record the differences. The distilled water starter will be sluggish or may fail completely. It's a good learning experiment!

well, i do not have experience using distilled water.

it's my understanding is that any deoxygenated water will slowly absorb O2 if allowed to sit (and likely more rapidly if it is agitated/stirred). not sure if absorb is the correct term to use here.

in my short timeframe of making wines from kits, i've had very active fermentations using RO water in the must as well as the starters i've made. it's my understanding that kits are concentrated to remove water only so i assumed that adding any type of water would be sufficient as the "good stuff" is still present. also, kit concentrate and water are stirred quite a bit when reconstituting. as such i never figured a lack of O2 was a real concern. or maybe i'm just naive- lol

 

[Brant]

To illustrate this, the best way is to make two yeast starters with the all ingredients and process being the same. Just swap out tap water and distilled water for each. Record the differences. The distilled water starter will be sluggish or may fail completely. It's a good learning experiment!

Edit: the yeast strain will also have varying levels of resistance to low oxygen, low mineral environments. A happy yeast is a happy wine, however!

since i have a bunch of extra yeast packets in my fridge, i will absolutely try this. i love experiments. i do stir all my starters so i'm interested to see if there will be a difference.

edit... i will drop this topic here as i don't want to hijack this thread!

 

[tjmeyer]

well, i do not have experience using distilled water.

it's my understanding is that any deoxygenated water will slowly absorb O2 if allowed to sit (and likely more rapidly if it is agitated/stirred). not sure if absorb is the correct term to use here.

in my short timeframe of making wines from kits, i've had very active fermentations using RO water in the must as well as the starters i've made. it's my understanding that kits are concentrated to remove water only so i assumed that adding any type of water would be sufficient as the "good stuff" is still present. also, kit concentrate and water are stirred quite a bit when reconstituting. as such i never figured a lack of O2 was a real concern. or maybe i'm just naive- lol

You're completely right! I don't know a lot about kits, but I can tell you that pros don't use distilled water, at least not in my sphere.

since i have a bunch of extra yeast packets in my fridge, i will absolutely try this. i love experiments. i do stir all my starters so i'm interested to see if there will be a difference.

I'd love to hear about it! If I can make a recommendation, use anything other than ec-1118 yeast

 

[winemaker81]

I think adding distilled water to a juice concentration kit will likely ruin your fermentation.

It doesn't. Finer Wine Kits calls for distilled water, and I have used it with no problems. I've used distilled water, bottled "spring" water, and my highly acidic well water for reconstituting kits and making fruit wine musts. I've never had a problem.

I read the page you posted, and it may be correct for specific situations, but for what folks on this forum typically do, I suspect it's not correct.

O2? When reconstituting a kit, what do we do? Stir the heck out of it, which introduces O2. During fermentation, we stir 1 to 4 times daily which introduces O2. Ditto on pour over. When making a fruit must, again, it's well stirred.

Minerals? The concentrate for kits will have whatever nutrients and minerals were in the grapes, and a fruit must will have whatever was in the fruit. Additionally, it's recommended to add yeast nutrient, which contains minerals. Does plain 'ole water contain enough minerals to make a significant difference?

That page sounds good, but when thinking it through, and based upon practical experience, I doubt its conclusion. That's for kits and fruit musts -- for the small amounts added to grape wines, it's even less likely.

You're completely right! I don't know a lot about kits, but I can tell you that pros don't use distilled water, at least not in my sphere.

Cost is likely a factor -- why pay for distilled water when any potable water source will do?

 

[tjmeyer]

It doesn't. Finer Wine Kits calls for distilled water, and I have used it with no problems. I've used distilled water, bottled "spring" water, and my highly acidic well water for reconstituting kits and making fruit wine musts. I've never had a problem.

I read the page you posted, and it may be correct for specific situations, but for what folks on this forum typically do, I suspect it's not correct.

O2? When reconstituting a kit, what do we do? Stir the heck out of it, which introduces O2. During fermentation, we stir 1 to 4 times daily which introduces O2. Ditto on pour over. When making a fruit must, again, it's well stirred.

Minerals? The concentrate for kits will have whatever nutrients and minerals were in the grapes, and a fruit must will have whatever was in the fruit. Additionally, it's recommended to add yeast nutrient, which contains minerals. Does plain 'ole water contain enough minerals to make a significant difference?

That page sounds good, but when thinking it through, and based upon practical experience, I doubt its conclusion. That's for kits and fruit musts -- for the small amounts added to grape wines, it's even less likely.


Cost is likely a factor -- why pay for distilled water when any potable water source will do?

Interesting
I guess I'm a fossil!

 

[winemaker81]

Interesting
I guess I'm a fossil!

If you see more pages that pique your interest, keep posting!

A huge advantage of this forum over blogs and videos is that a large number of experienced winemakers of all stripes dissect things. There is not one person's POV; there is what some call "group mind", which is not a homogenous single view. There are numerous takes on a given subject, often conflicting, but it helps each person make their own decisions.

It helps that for the most part, we converse in a friendly fashion, even when disagreeing. It has been noted that we do not act like the remainder of the net.

I learn something new on this forum ever week. Oddly enough, not all is winemaking related.

 

[tjmeyer]

If you see more pages that pique your interest, keep posting!

A huge advantage of this forum over blogs and videos is that a large number of experienced winemakers of all stripes dissect things. There is not one person's POV; there is what some call "group mind", which is not a homogenous single view. There are numerous takes on a given subject, often conflicting, but it helps each person make their own decisions.

It helps that for the most part, we converse in a friendly fashion, even when disagreeing. It has been noted that we do not act like the remainder of the net.

I learn something new on this forum ever week. Oddly enough, not all is winemaking related.

Absolutely! Please know that I am never going to be upset by someone's experience, opinions, or dissecting of methods! I am interested in everyone's experience and thoughts. I was once told that no one can fly when winemaking, the best you can do is fall with style. (Toy Story reference, whatever you take that to mean lol)

Being unable to reason objectively about methods and styles, or taking personal offense, tends to make for a very rough journey in winemaking!

 

[Brant]

It helps that for the most part, we converse in a friendly fashion, even when disagreeing. It has been noted that we do not act like the remainder of the net.

This is probably the best part of WMT... we all act like adults and are respectful to one another. It's nice to have something that brings a bunch of unlikeminded people together on common ground.

The reason people come here is to learn and help one another. WMT is unique to most of the other places the internet takes you. I love this forum. I understand why Bryan reads every post- .

 

[tjmeyer]

Data 3/16/24
This will probably be the final measurements before yeast inoculation.
Temperature
Steadily rising and measured 18.4°C/65.1°F this morning. Took an analog measure also just as a sanity check. Digital and analog agree as exact as I can tell.

Spoiler: Thermometer

pH
No change

Sugar
Measured in at just below 21°Brix, so I'm going to go with 20.8°Brix. This is down from yesterday so I believe it has stabilized.

Spoiler: Before

As agreed upon, I increased the sugar content to get closer to 24° Brix. Knowing from past experience that fermentation often pulls out more sugar than is detectable, I calculated for 23° Brix.
Here is that math:
(23° Brix - 20.8° Brix) * (1.5oz sugar solute / 1 gallon must solvent) * 20 gallons must solvent = 66 oz sugar solute
This follows the standard equation for chaptalization: Δ°Brix * solute/solvent conversion * volume

Edit: because I had a highly soluble form of sugar, I did not dissolve before adding it. Just a direct add and ~30 gallons of pour over in increments of 5-6 gallons at a time. If you're using granulated sugar, it is much easier to dissolve first, then add, or your measurements may be off until it's had time to fully and completely dissolve.

Spoiler: After

Taste/look
Juice is looking darker red than 2 days ago, hard to tell and could be lighting, but I get the sense of a deep ruby as opposed to the brighter cherry of before.

Spoiler: Must juice color

Surface is calm with no bubbles, as far as I can detect nothing has started on it's own while adjusting to temp.

 

[winemaker81]

That all sounds good!

 

[tjmeyer]

Decision time! Starting yeast now. I have split the batch into 1x ~ 8 gallon tank and the original 12 gallon false bottom press tank. I have the following yeast strains from recommendations here (I usually used 212, but I'm excited to try something new!):

• BM 4x4
• Assmanshaussen
• RP-15
• (and a variety of others that weren't mentioned)

I have the following for starting:

• fermaid k
• fermaid o
• go-ferm protect evolution (wtf with that name though, it's like something from thundercats)
• fermfed dap
• yeast hulls and other basics.

Where should we pitch what, how much, etc? I'll follow Bryan's guides on hydrating--it differs from what I normally do, but it looks great.

 

[Brant]

Decision time! Starting yeast now. I have split the batch into 1x ~ 8 gallon tank and the original 12 gallon false bottom press tank. I have the following yeast strains from recommendations here (I usually used 212, but I'm excited to try something new!):

• BM 4x4
• Assmanshaussen
• RP-15
• (and a variety of others that weren't mentioned)

I have the following for starting:

• fermaid k
• fermaid o
• go-ferm protect evolution (wtf with that name though, it's like something from thundercats)
• fermfed dap
• yeast hulls and other basics.

Where should we pitch what, how much, etc? I'll follow Bryan's guides on hydrating--it differs from what I normally do, but it looks great.

Is the intention to use 2 strains and blend after fermentation? Or is the plan to make 2 different wines?

I don't have an opinion other than I think RC212 is used commonly around the forum as it's commonly supplied in the higher end red kits I've seen. For that reason alone, if making 2 separate wines, I'd like to see how a different yeast performs in direct comparison to RC212.

Can you share some pictures of the vessels you're planning to ferment in?

 

[winemaker81]

I haven't used any of those strains, so I'm going by description:

Assmanshaussen for 8 gallon tank, for flavoring​

RP-15 for 12 gallon tank, for mouthfeel, varietal flavor, and fruit character​

BM 4x4 is a good choice, but it's not MLF friendly, if MLF is planned.

I use Fermax for nutrient, as it's always worked well for me, and the Fermaid are pricier. Lot of folks like the Fermaid-O.

I experimented with a scale last year, and most strains are roughly 2-1/4 tsp per 5 g. If you're using packets, I'd go with 2 packets for each batch. If you have bulk, 3 tsp for the 8 gallon batch and 5 tsp for the 12 gallon batch.

If you make a starter today, say around 6PM your time, pitch in the morning (12-14 hours later).

Is the intention to use 2 strains and blend after fermentation? Or is the plan to make 2 different wines?

I assumed blending.

I have reserved part of the separate batches, e.g., reserve 8 liters of each batch, and after settling for a month, rack each down to 4 liters and add the remainder of each to the main batch. This way you have 5 bottles of each separate batch, which can be later compared to the main blended batch.

I'm thinking liters in this situation, as I have Carlo Rossi 4 liter jugs in the winery. I don't buy gallon jugs, I buy Carlo Rossi (Burgundy & Chablis make good cooking wine), and get free jugs.