Zinfandel grapes -> wine! A new member's introduction via a 75L of red deliciousness.

[tjmeyer]

If you don't have a small neutral or near neutral barrel, going with glass or stainless steel is a better choice.

I do not have anything like that, I'd have to buy it new.

 

[Brant]

I also vacuum rack into my barrel. I'll make approximately 18 gal of wine. Barrel takes 15 and remaining 3 gal (topup wine) goes into gallon jugs and swivel top glass as needed.

Trevor, are you using So2 additions at anytime during your process? If not, I can see your concern with O2.

 

[tjmeyer]

I also vacuum rack into my barrel. I'll make approximately 18 gal of wine. Barrel takes 15 and remaining 3 gal (topup wine) goes into gallon jugs and swivel top glass as needed.

Trevor, are you using So2 additions at anytime during your process? If not, I can see your concern with O2.

I do use potassium metabisulfite. I just find it not worth the risk to not use it. I think I'm just traumatized from so many of my batches tasting over oxygenated. After moving over to mostly sealed (completely sealed is not good either!) I've resolved my issues.

 

[Brant]

If you decide to bulk age, do you intend to add aging oak or is this not something you considered outside of using a barrel? Personally, I wouldn't make a red without oak (just seems wrong). This is also a reason to bulk age vs bottle age.

 

[tjmeyer]

If you decide to bulk age, do you intend to add aging oak or is this not something you considered outside of using a barrel? Personally, I wouldn't make a red without oak (just seems wrong). This is also a reason to bulk age vs bottle age.

I find reds are much more tolerant of oxygen and can handle the high oxygen aging environment of a barrel, so I do not attempt to barrel my whites at all. I haven't done much oaking without a barrel, but after this forum ferment I'm really tempted to try it! I'd love to get rid of barrels! It would be significantly cheaper, easier, and less risky. If the quality is up to par for what I would want to sell, then barrels can go imo

 

[cmason1957]

I find reds are much more tolerant of oxygen and can handle the high oxygen aging environment of a barrel, so I do not attempt to barrel my whites at all. I haven't done much oaking without a barrel, but after this forum ferment I'm really tempted to try it! I'd love to get rid of barrels! It would be significantly cheaper, easier, and less risky. If the quality is up to par for what I would want to sell, then barrels can go imo

Barrels provide so much more than just oak. The micro (slow) oxidation that happens in a barrel is beneficial to a wine, but probably even more important is the angels share and the intensification that happens as that evaporation happens. This effect cannot happen in a carboy or steel tank. It can happen in a FlexTank and renowned wine expert Daniel (don't call him Dan) Pambianchi did a study on the differences - https://www.techniquesinhomewinemak...ed-in-a-flextank-vs-a-second-year-oak-barrel/

It's probably worth a read, even if some of it went over my head

 

[winemaker81]

I find reds are much more tolerant of oxygen and can handle the high oxygen aging environment of a barrel, so I do not attempt to barrel my whites at all. I haven't done much oaking without a barrel, but after this forum ferment I'm really tempted to try it! I'd love to get rid of barrels! It would be significantly cheaper, easier, and less risky. If the quality is up to par for what I would want to sell, then barrels can go imo

Oak adjuncts don't replace barrels, they just add flavoring to carboy/SS and neutral barrel aged wines. The concentration effect caused by evaporation from the barrel is what I use a barrel for. Two of my three are long since neutral, so I can age the wine as long as I desire, adding oak cubes in amounts that depend upon the wine being aged.

 

[tjmeyer]

Data 3/22/24
Temperature
Temperature leveled off yesterday and has begun to drop steadily. Currently sitting around 24.2°C/75.5°F.
Ambient temperature is between 19-20°C.

SG
BM 4x4 / AMH: is sitting right around 1.000.

Spoiler: BM 4x4 SG

RP-15: appears to be slightly under the BM 4x4 at 0.998.

Spoiler: RP-15 SG

Brix
Brix is getting hard to read at this stage and probably isn't worth looking at, but here we go!
BM 4x4 / AMH: I'm going to estimate that read to be about 7.5° Brix.

Spoiler: BM 4x4 Brix

RP-15: looks about the same. 7.5° Brix.

Spoiler: RP-15 Brix

Look/Feel/Taste
I can no longer detect any residual sugar by taste. Quality still seems good on both! Looking forward to how these mature. The difference in foamy texture has disappeared and they appear and feel very similar.

Spoiler: BM 4x4 image

Spoiler: RP-15 Image

 

[tjmeyer]

Oak adjuncts don't replace barrels, they just add flavoring to carboy/SS and neutral barrel aged wines. The concentration effect caused by evaporation from the barrel is what I use a barrel for. Two of my three are long since neutral, so I can age the wine as long as I desire, adding oak cubes in amounts that depend upon the wine being aged.

Barrels provide so much more than just oak. The micro (slow) oxidation that happens in a barrel is beneficial to a wine, but probably even more important is the angels share and the intensification that happens as that evaporation happens. This effect cannot happen in a carboy or steel tank. It can happen in a FlexTank and renowned wine expert Daniel (don't call him Dan) Pambianchi did a study on the differences - https://www.techniquesinhomewinemak...ed-in-a-flextank-vs-a-second-year-oak-barrel/

It's probably worth a read, even if some of it went over my head

Yeah, this is a good point. Can't really give angel's their share from stainless

 

[Brant]

Edit: just found this interesting: https://ives-technicalreviews.eu/article/view/3097

I find articles like this interesting but unfortunately not of much value to the average home winemaker (HWM). How do we take that information and use it to generate a realistic comparison to what we do at home? What HWM understands what O2 uptake in mg/L even means? Seeing what processes increase potential for O2 uptake has value but none of this data should be surprising.

They breakout the O2 uptake into these steps in the process (from highest to lowest potential for O2 uptake)...

1) Pump over (during fermentation): Irrelevant to the average HWM as most will likely just punch down 1 to 3x per day. Plus the wine is fermenting (needs O2 for the yeast to thrive) and at the same time off-gassing CO2 which protects the wine.
2) Aging: Vessel type is not defined but I feel this is a critical component to the discussion. For instance, if the average home winemaker bulk ages in glass with reduced headspace, O2 uptake should be significantly less than what they suggest to be the highest potential for O2 uptake (post fermentation).
3) Micro-O2: Relevant to barrel aging, irrelevant to the average HWM.
4) Bottle aging: If the wine isn't O2 compromised at this point in the process, there is likely little concern once it's safely in the bottle. Cork type and quality play a roll, albeit a small one. Arguably if there is good cork integrity, there should be little variation in O2 uptake over the coarse of a normal bottle life (1 to 3 years).

The missing components in this discussion is: racking/transfer and SO2 additions and their affects on O2 uptake. Rackings are unavoidable for the average HWM using small/cheap vessels.

So what is my take away as a novice winemaker...
1) O2 is needed during fermentation.
2) Micro-O2 can enhance the wine profile (and usually does).
3) Manage the processes to avoid excessive O2 as it can/will ruin the wine. Didn't we already know this? LOL.

 

[tjmeyer]

I find articles like this interesting but unfortunately not of much value to the average home winemaker (HWM). How do we take that information and use it to generate a realistic comparison to what we do at home? What HWM understands what O2 uptake in mg/L even means? Seeing what processes increase potential for O2 uptake has value but none of this data should be surprising.

They breakout the O2 uptake into these steps in the process (from highest to lowest potential for O2 uptake)...

1) Pump over (during fermentation): Irrelevant to the average HWM as most will likely just punch down 1 to 3x per day. Plus the wine is fermenting (needs O2 for the yeast to thrive) and at the same time off-gassing CO2 which protects the wine.
2) Aging: Vessel type is not defined but I feel this is a critical component to the discussion. For instance, if the average home winemaker bulk ages in glass with reduced headspace, O2 uptake should be significantly less than what they suggest to be the highest potential for O2 uptake (post fermentation).
3) Micro-O2: Relevant to barrel aging, irrelevant to the average HWM.
4) Bottle aging: If the wine isn't O2 compromised at this point in the process, there is likely little concern once it's safely in the bottle. Cork type and quality play a roll, albeit a small one. Arguably if there is good cork integrity, there should be little variation in O2 uptake over the coarse of a normal bottle life (1 to 3 years).

The missing components in this discussion is: racking/transfer and SO2 additions and their affects on O2 uptake. Rackings are unavoidable for the average HWM using small/cheap vessels.

So what is my take away as a novice winemaker...
1) O2 is needed during fermentation.
2) Micro-O2 can enhance the wine profile (and usually does).
3) Manage the processes to avoid excessive O2 as it can/will ruin the wine. Didn't we already know this? LOL.

I think there's also value in abstractly quantifying how much O2 is introduced by one action over another. Even if that is just "small, medium, and large."

 

[Brant]

I find reds are much more tolerant of oxygen and can handle the high oxygen aging environment of a barrel, so I do not attempt to barrel my whites at all. I haven't done much oaking without a barrel, but after this forum ferment I'm really tempted to try it! I'd love to get rid of barrels! It would be significantly cheaper, easier, and less risky. If the quality is up to par for what I would want to sell, then barrels can go imo

You should look into Flextanks over barrels. They seem cost effective, easier to use, they have a more efficient storage footprint and seem easier to control the process. If I was commercial, I would seriously look into this as an option over barrels. Especially if I could run side by side experiments with identical wines (commercial set-ups have access to lots of wine to run comparisons). You could compare barrel aged, Flextank aged and bottle aged. Should be pretty easy to determine which one wins in the end.

 

[Brant]

Yeah, this is a good point. Can't really give angel's their share from stainless

Having now used a barrel and tasting the difference, it's unlikely that I will ever make another Red without barrel aging. It is a game changer IMO.

 

[winemaker81]

I think there's also value in abstractly quantifying how much O2 is introduced by one action over another. Even if that is just "small, medium, and large."

I don't have a clue how I would do that.

 

[tjmeyer]

Looks like we're under 1.000 SG. Traditionally I would press this evening and get the wine out of the oxygen. Is this ok with everyone?

 

[Brant]

Looks like we're under 1.000 SG. Traditionally I would press this evening and get the wine out of the oxygen. Is this ok with everyone?

If you're not in a sealed fermentor (under an airlock), then YES- press.

 

[winemaker81]

Looks like we're under 1.000 SG. Traditionally I would press this evening and get the wine out of the oxygen. Is this ok with everyone?

I'm fine with pressing now.

However, you raise an interesting question -- given how much the wine outgasses during and immediately after fermentation, is O2 a problem during that period?

During fermentation, O2 is not a problem -- in fact, we ensure the must is being oxygenated as yeast uses it for reproduction. Post fermentation? Practical evidence is that the wine is typically degassing sufficiently to protect it from oxidation for a short period in an open container, and for a longer period in a closed container.

I checked the Australian Wine Research Institute (AWRI) for anything, and they have a list of oxygen related research that I'm going to read through. I like AWRI as I can understand most of it without having to search on every 3rd word.

https://www.awri.com.au/information_services/information-packs/oxygen-exposure/

Some research papers are written like the author is playing Scrabble, seeking extra points for using words with the most syllables.

 

[tjmeyer]

Some research papers are written like the author is playing Scrabble, seeking extra points for using words with the most syllables.

Haha so true. I hate that.

During fermentation, O2 is not a problem -- in fact, we ensure the must is being oxygenated as yeast uses it for reproduction. Post fermentation? Practical evidence is that the wine is typically degassing sufficiently to protect it from oxidation for a short period in an open container, and for a longer period in a closed container.

Moving it under a vacuum accelerates that outgassing significantly! Pressing it under vacuum essentially degasses it. Even so it will still outgas a bit, and in a sealed container CO2 will sink below the air (if there is any) to create a very fragile protective layer. Opening it at all will ruin this layer. This is what I've been told over the years.

 

[cmason1957]

Haha so true. I hate that.

Moving it under a vacuum accelerates that outgassing significantly! Pressing it under vacuum essentially degasses it. Even so it will still outgas a bit, and in a sealed container CO2 will sink below the air (if there is any) to create a very fragile protective layer. Opening it at all will ruin this layer. This is what I've been told over the years.

This is not quite true. CO2 does not sink below the air (oxygen), it mixes. There is not a protective layer. It mixes in a very, very short amount of time.

 

[winemaker81]

Moving it under a vacuum accelerates that outgassing significantly! Pressing it under vacuum essentially degasses it. Even so it will still outgas a bit, and in a sealed container CO2 will sink below the air (if there is any) to create a very fragile protective layer. Opening it at all will ruin this layer. This is what I've been told over the years.

Craig beat me to it.

A major benefit of this forum is the amount of independent information that is brought in. I was under the belief that CO2 formed a protective layer over the wine, but numerous folks have presented evidence that gases intermix rather quickly. I formed a couple of theories:

1) During fermentation the yeast is consuming O2 for its reproductive needs. Additionally, the must emits continuous CO2, and while it mixes rapidly with the air above the must, there is sufficient CO2 to provide enough of a buffer against oxidation. Plus oxidation is not a rapid action, so for the limited time of fermentation the wine is safe from O2.

2) Headspace inside a carboy immediately after fermentation ends is not a concern. While the CO2 mixes rapidly, as it is emitted it displaces whatever gas is at the top of the container out the airlock. Depending on the rate of CO2 emission, within a relatively short period of time non-CO2 gas is pushed out of the container and while the remaining gas may not be pure CO2, the amount of O2 in relation to the volume of wine is below a threshold so oxidation is effectively nil.

I base these theories on my understanding of yeast biology, physics of gases mixing, and that IME oxidation has not been a problem within a few weeks of the end of fermentation.

While some of your understanding of winemaking is being challenged, I'm getting better insight into commercial winemaking, and won't be surprised if some common home winemaker understandings are challenged.

I learn something new on this forum every week.