Good to know!
Zinfandel grapes -> wine! A new member's introduction via a 75L of red deliciousness.
- Thread starter tjmeyer
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My short membership has already benefit me greatly!While some of your understanding of winemaking is being challenged, I'm getting better insight into commercial winemaking, and won't be surprised if some common home winemaker understandings are challenged.
I learn something new on this forum every week.
Currently gathering everything up for press and transfer to a stainless tank. I was going to do carboy, but I'm almost certain we'll end up with more than 12 gallons of wine from 20.5 gallons of must and I only have the 2x 6 gallon carboys.
Will post photos of the process once done!
Press is done. Really wish I did this in the winery, not the house 
Result is good. Added 20.5g of potassium metabisulfite. Filled up completely an SS Brewtech 14 gallon brew bucket.
Some notes on what you're seeing.
The left vessel is 14g and is being placed under an air vacuum from the top hard line. That hard line runs to a small air pump and pressure gauge. From the bottom of the same vessel is where the pressed wine enters and is connected to the fermenter/press combo on the right.
As the vacuum increases in pressure, the piston on top of the fermenter is forced down by the atmosphere. Eventually the solids get pressed to whatever psi is desired.
Raised the airlock a touch to avoid that.
Result is good. Added 20.5g of potassium metabisulfite. Filled up completely an SS Brewtech 14 gallon brew bucket.
Some notes on what you're seeing.
The left vessel is 14g and is being placed under an air vacuum from the top hard line. That hard line runs to a small air pump and pressure gauge. From the bottom of the same vessel is where the pressed wine enters and is connected to the fermenter/press combo on the right.
As the vacuum increases in pressure, the piston on top of the fermenter is forced down by the atmosphere. Eventually the solids get pressed to whatever psi is desired.
On the plus side, headspace is NOT an issue!
Aedoyle
Junior
So so helpful to read this through and hear from you guys. Quick question about oak barrels while we wait…
I think winemaker81 said they like to use a carboy (or stainless steel equivalent) first before racking into oak later- is the reason why you don't just go right to Oak just that you would have too many sediments in your barrel and this is a pain to deal with after? Or does the carboy provide more control to watch clarity (aka it’s clear)?
Trevor- you mentioned you don’t like oak barrels for under 30 gal- do you find it makes things too oaky? Or is it that the angels share getting too big?
Thanks for your time in advance!
I think winemaker81 said they like to use a carboy (or stainless steel equivalent) first before racking into oak later- is the reason why you don't just go right to Oak just that you would have too many sediments in your barrel and this is a pain to deal with after? Or does the carboy provide more control to watch clarity (aka it’s clear)?
Trevor- you mentioned you don’t like oak barrels for under 30 gal- do you find it makes things too oaky? Or is it that the angels share getting too big?
Thanks for your time in advance!
The problem is 2-fold:
1. Surface area to volume ratio:
I don't want to make this too mathy, which I've been guilty of in the past. But to put it simply, each time you double the volume a barrel, you decrease the amount of surface area each gallon comes in contact with by about half. In smaller and smaller barrels, each gallon of wine is getting more and more spread out over the oak. That means more oaking and more oxygen exposure, in turn the time you can keep wine in barrel becomes shorter and shorter.
2. Benefit to cost ratio:
That brings me to cost. Barrels aren't just expensive to buy, but expensive to maintain, use, and store. You can't keep a barrel empty without spending effort (cost) and time (more cost) to fill it with a sanitary solution, so you need a barrel that can be refilled immediately after harvest year over year. If you can only barrel for 15 weeks without over oxygenating, then you're replacing that barrel every 45 weeks, which is even more cost. It quickly cascades to being too costly. I find 30 gallon barrels to be about the limit to my personal cost:value threshold.
All that being said, there's nothing wrong with barreling with 5 gallons or 10 gallons at all! But it gives you very very little time to catch over oxygenation issues, or over oaking issues if they occur. In a 10 gallon barrel, the difference between good oak to tasting like an ash tray can be only a week. In 5 gallons, only a few days.
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One topic which doesn’t seem to have a single answer - just a lot of opinions here in the local home winemaking community is how best to store a barrel between uses. So what do you put in a barrel that will not be needed for wine for say 3-6 months? How about less than a month?
Thanks. I often have empties for a month or two. I like to bottle in July or August and then reuse the barrel with the harvest that fall - so typically adding wine in September or October. That window of time has been the subject of much discussion- store it full of something so it doesn’t dry out or store it dry with sulfur gas.
The more wine people take both sides in that article!!
My friends and I generally use neutral aka old barrels so the loss of oak flavor isn’t a factor. We do add in oak staves or cubes to offset the lack of natural oak. Not as good as a new barrel but one heck of a lot cheaper.
All of your statements are correct, at least for me. The only additional point is degassing.
We press into buckets, and at the four gallon mark we pour into carboys (amount is for manageability). I say "carboy", but in addition to 12, 19, and 23 liter carboys, I have one each 25 and 54 liter demijohns. This does a lot of the degassing.
Roughly 3 weeks later we rack all carboys into a 32 gallon Brute to homogenize the wine, then rack into the barrel. At this point most of the excess CO2 is gone, although I check the bung twice a day for the first week in case of excess CO2 blowing the bung. In this case, I use a drill-mounted stirring rod to stir for 1 minute, changing direction half way.
Any sediment that drops in the barrel is fine lees, and it stays there for the full 12 months of my barrel cycle. I've been stirring the barrel at topup for the first 6 months, sort of a battonage, and let it rest for the last 6. I've had sediment drop in bottles when I didn't give the barrel enough time to rest.
My older barrels are neutral, so I work on a 12 month cycle to avoid empty barrel. Typically I get new grapes in October, and in November bottle last years's wines in the barrels and fill 'em with new wine on the same day. I use Barrel Oxyfresh for cleaning, so the barrels soak for 4 hours between emptying and refilling.
This avoids wasting money and effort on a holding solution, but it does make for a long day when we bottle/refill.
Barrels can be stored dry, and while intellectually I understand that it works, but I'm just not comfortable doing it. Besides, the method I have works for me.
I love these things so much. Only way to really stir a barrel if needed imo
My first year with a barrel I learned the hard way that wine has no convection currents. I added cubes, which sank to the bottom.
When draining the barrel, I racked most of the way to the bottom, leaving a few bottle's worth of wine, which was later poured into a bucket. This went into the fridge to clear for a week.
The wine was absolutely undrinkable. It was the oakiest thing that had ever passed my lips.
This was my first year with a barrel, so for reasons I cannot recall, I racked it half way through the year. I used the oaky wine for topup, and it worked out perfect.
Since then, I stir at topup during at least the first 4 months after adding oak cubes, to ensure the oakiness distributes throughout the barrel. After 3 months or so the cubes are expended, so it no longer matters if I stir.
Aedoyle
Junior
Thank you- so helpful!!
Paulie vino
Senior Member
Been very interesting to follow this thread. Thanks to the original poster to start it. I have a question for @winemaker81 . You keep your wine in neutral 15 gallon barrels for 1 year. Do you worry about too much oxygen exposure? I'm thinking about getting a barrel but for the volume of wine I make a 5 gallon would be the best option and at that size I'm worried about oxygen exposure (this is thinking ahead to when it's neutral and no longer risk of over oaking the wine).
It doesn't appear to be a problem. I know of folks with similar barrel sizes that age them longer.
I took a tip from @Rice_Guy a while back, and add 1/4 tsp K-meta at each monthly topup. The dosage for the barrels is a scant 3/4 tsp, so I basically add 1/3 at a time.
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RP-15 is the best Zinfandel yeast
Data 04/11/2024
First racking complete! I would normally do this a little sooner, but the vineyard and planting season honestly forced this little fun side project completely out of my mind until last night. (sorry!)
Setup
I'm using 2x 14 gallon SS Brewtech conical buckets. They are not a true conical as it doesn't have a bottom dump valve, but I still much prefer them over the industry standard flat bottoms, just a personal preference.
Applying a gentle air vacuum from the top of the clean tank, and a pretty standard racking cane and hose into the sample valve. I prefer this method as it very gently degasses and racks at the same time. The cons of this method is increased risk of pulling air through your wine which will over oxygenate it VERY quickly. But if you just pay attention and have a patient hand, this shouldn't be an issue for most folks.
Sampling
From this point on the wine will change much slower, but it will change drastically. I don't smell ANYTHING bad! I'm smelling strong fruit and a very faint and delicate combination of healthy yeast and spices.
Here are some common bad smells for the sake of education:
Surprisingly good for still being extremely cloudy. No detectable off flavors. Alcohol is much more mild after sitting for a good while. In time, I expect this batch to be labelled as exceptional. I may submit this a competition if you all are interested in participating and if it turns out as I expect it will.
Appearance
A very bright red, for now. Strong legs. Outgassed nicely.
First racking complete! I would normally do this a little sooner, but the vineyard and planting season honestly forced this little fun side project completely out of my mind until last night. (sorry!)
Setup
I'm using 2x 14 gallon SS Brewtech conical buckets. They are not a true conical as it doesn't have a bottom dump valve, but I still much prefer them over the industry standard flat bottoms, just a personal preference.
Applying a gentle air vacuum from the top of the clean tank, and a pretty standard racking cane and hose into the sample valve. I prefer this method as it very gently degasses and racks at the same time. The cons of this method is increased risk of pulling air through your wine which will over oxygenate it VERY quickly. But if you just pay attention and have a patient hand, this shouldn't be an issue for most folks.
Sampling
From this point on the wine will change much slower, but it will change drastically. I don't smell ANYTHING bad! I'm smelling strong fruit and a very faint and delicate combination of healthy yeast and spices.
Here are some common bad smells for the sake of education:
- sulfur (bad eggs or "fart" smells)
- sour/bitter (stressed yeast producing acetobacter, or vinegar, acetic acid, from ethanol) edit (thx @Nebbiolo020 ): not all sour is bad. Tartaric and malic acids are also sour and do not mean anything is wrong and can be converted to smooth malic acid if preferred. These tend to be a "green apple" kind of sour while Acetic acid is bitter and very stable.
- moldy (brettanomyces, we just call it "Brett")
Surprisingly good for still being extremely cloudy. No detectable off flavors. Alcohol is much more mild after sitting for a good while. In time, I expect this batch to be labelled as exceptional. I may submit this a competition if you all are interested in participating and if it turns out as I expect it will.
Appearance
A very bright red, for now. Strong legs. Outgassed nicely.
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Interesting setup for racking. Thanks for sharing the pictures.
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Young wine can often times be sour because it’s young and not ready yet and it will age out. So a sour tang does not always mean you have a problem.
True! But there are lots of kinds of sour. I was referring to the tell-tale acetic acid bitter/sour that doesn't really age out like strong malic or tartaric acids do.
Clarified on the data post, thx!
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