2012 Riesling

[Deezil]

With these Riesling grapes coming my way in a couple weeks, ive been trying to work myself through the process i've got a head of me and it seems one of my bigger obstacles is choosing which yeast strain to go with..

Lalvin tries to suggest 1118 for late harvest wines but i know better.. Yes its a monster & could finish the job, but it'd blow off all the aromas and the ABV is 4-5% higher than i'd like to aim for.. Granted i dont know the actual numbers of the grapes yet but im just trying to 'ballpark it'

I was considering 1116 but it has a similiar ABV tolerance so that's made me lean toward D-47... But.... Do i wanna do that? I dunno... So i ask..

Any other opinions?

PS - the grower indicated they'd be of "late harvest" quality/numbers, so if you're wondering if im going for Late Harvest just cause i wanna be difficult - not so much

 

[Deezil]

Did a little more digging...

R-HST sounds like it might be fun

Anyone have any experience with it?

.. Or do i have a lot of fun, split the batch and run 2 yeasts? W15 might be fun too

 

[robie]

I vote to split the batches and try at least two yeast, one on each batch, of course. You can blend back and get the best of 2 worlds.

Then you can tell us so we will know next time, 'cause obviously we surely don't already know.

I guess a big question is can you get those specialty yeasts in smaller, home wine making quantities? Hope so!

 

[Deezil]

My post, two posts ago, has links to those yeasts in 8g packets through MoreWine (they also have 80g packs, as well as the 500g).. I'm just fishing for answers/information/input early so i have time for it to be shipped here..

2 yeasts & blend, might be more beneficial to me in the long run, because i plan on buying more grapes next year & i dont think i'll ever skip a year of riesling now

If not W15 ('cause im pretty much decided on R-HST), then maybe BA-11 ..

Body:
R-HST - "R-HST retains fresh varietal character while contributing body and mouthfeel. R-HST produces crisp, premium white wines intended for aging."

W15 - "W15 was developed to ferment dry whites at moderate speeds where bright fruit and heavy mouthfeel are desired."

BA11 - " BA11 intensifies mouthfeel and augments lingering flavors in both still and sparkling white wines." , "With fruit from hot climates, BA11 can really help to "flesh out" a wine by its' volume and mouthfeel enhancement. This strain is good by itself, as well as being a great structural component to a blend. "

Nose:
R-HST - "R-HST is best used when the most transparency between a fruit and a finished wine is sought. This can be useful for showcasing quality fruit and terroir differences, as well making sure original fruit characters are retained in a final blend."

W15 - "This yeast does just that (see Body), and it does so while respecting the varietal characteristics of the fruit"

BA11 - "It promotes clean, aromatic, estery characteristics during fermentation.", "BA11 encourages the fresh fruit aromas of orange blossom, pineapple and apricot. In relatively neutral white varieties BA11 brings out tropical fruit, cream, vanilla and spice."

Maybe if i can see it all on the same page - cause they all sound good when you read the descriptions... The "spice" of ba11 kinda makes me nervous though, its a trait in wine i know i dont like

 

[Deezil]

Yeah... R-HST & W15 it is..

From Lallemand:

Lalvin R-HST®: For Riesling and other aromatic whites
R-HST was selected for its exceptional oenological properties in Riesling from trials conducted from 1991 to 1996 in the Heiligenstein region of Austria. R-HST has a short lag phase and generation time, even at cold temperatures. These features allow it to dominate and persist over spoilage yeast such as Kloeckera apiculata. R-HST retains fresh varietal character and emphasizes floral (rose) and mineral characteristics while contributing body and mouthfeel for an overall complexity and elegance. R-HST also produces crisp, premium white and Pinot noir wines which develop well over time.

Lalvin W15™: For clean, low-temperature ferments
W15 was isolated in 1991 from a high-quality Müller Thurgau must at the Viticulture Research Station in Wädenswil, Switzerland. W15 was developed to ferment dry white and red wines at moderate speeds, where bright fruit and good structure are desired due to the production of higher levels of glycerol and succinic acid. Very little heat is generated by W15 during fermentation, reducing the potential for formation of sulfide aromas and good osmotic tolerance has been noted for late harvest fermentations and icewine.



Not gonna age the wine on oak, but what about adding oak during fermentation to add structure? Anyone? Never done oak before myself... Read that the vanillin/caramel compounds get consumed during fermentation though, leaving less of a flavor impact but still bringing some structure... Light toasted french oak maybe?

Not gonna do battonage, but what about a little unstirred lees aging? That tampers down the fresh fruit aromas though huh? So probably out.. I'm just thinking outloud at this point, feel free to correct me or help point me in the right direction.

Looking for some good body & structure, the ability to age it a while (2-5yrs if possible) but not lose the fresh light crisp aromas and flavors..

Any tips on dodging a dry finish? Not as in a low SG in finished wine, but as in the finish on your palette..
Could it be influenced by tweaking the structure of the wine with oak and such? Would leaving those out, or atleast keeping that in mind when dosing, keep the sweetness in the finish?

 

[Deezil]

Not gonna do battonage, but what about a little unstirred lees aging? That tampers down the fresh fruit aromas though huh? So probably out.. I'm just thinking outloud at this point, feel free to correct me or help point me in the right direction.

Not gonna do any lees aging, but i am thinking im gonna do a 4hr cold soak on the skins and then press off, take measurements/adjust & add the yeast starter

 

[Diverdown066]

I'm currently working on a batch of Riesling and found the article below to be very helpful. It was a very short notice deal and due to a slight miscommunication, I ended up gleaning about 175 lbs of grapes of various quality. The short notice nature of the deal meant I was unable to be too picky with yeast selection. I split the juice and froze half. After settling and racking, I inoculated the other half with D47 which was the only good choice I had. I pressed my kegorator into service and have been fermenting about 55-60 degrees. I let the fermentation start at room temp though before placing it the kegerator. So far so good. Very floral with definite notes of pineapple and citrus. The other half will be cryoconcentrated to become an ice wine. I've ordered some Rudesheimer yeast for that endeavor. It seems to be a common yeast for Riesling and since I didn't see it listed in your post, I thought I'd mention it. Good luck.

http://winemakermag.com/stories/vf/...etalswine-styles/221-cool-refreshing-riesling

 

[Deezil]

Havent heard of Rudesheimer, but i see its made by Wyeast - i havent looked into them much.. Seems to have a 12-13% ABV tolerance, which sounds about right for a table-wine riesling (aka i might steal your idea for next year ) but i'm not sure i'd use it on a dessert-style riesling..

It's characteristics sound great, but i would fear that it wouldnt eat up enough of the sugars, leaving you with a sickly-sweet finished wine... Most "ice wines" are 30-33 Brix, which is a SG of 1.130+.. Subtract 12-13% ABV and you've got 1.030 - 1.040 SG still... Which is about where my 18% ice wine is sitting for sweetness..

Thats why i've gone for yeasts above 12-13% but not 18% ABV - i used 1118 on my Riesling Ice Wine RJS kit so i already have that "sickly sweet" wine you may be looking for - i'm aiming to come in a "notch" under that at 14-16% w/ balancing residual sweetness.

I'm leaning away from the 4-hr cold soak, although i may let them soak long enough to get them all crushed & strained out (probably an hour or two, while im working through it)....

I'm thinking i might put the 2 carboys i plan on fermenting in, outside on the porch at night.. It's been hitting low-mid 50's... And my work area is low-mid 60's all day/night... The nighttime cooloff might help keep things at a slower pace although i'll probably let fermentation get kicking & a cap form before i put it outside for the first time

I'll probably kick the carboys back out to the porch in December/January for some au naturale cold stabilization

I've read a few things about Bentonite just post-fermentation to help clearing & not to let the wine sit on the lees at all... Gonna do the latter, but not sure about bentonite - i tend to prefer time..

Hoping to leave some residual sweetness this time to balance the acidity (hoping to put some age on this year's), but next year i'll probably be siphoning off a portion of juice to reintroduce the residual sweetness for a regular ol riesling table wine

 

[Deezil]

This book has me thinking - beyond my first thought of "i really dont wanna mess this up" - (Wine From Grape to Glass, Vol 3; Jens Priewe)

"Sometimes white grapes are not pressed, but only crushed. Must and skins subsequently remain together for a few hours to release the aromatic substances from the skin and give the wine more structure."

"Cold fermentation is only possible using certain specific yeast that are active at low temperatures. In addition, the must has to be well clarified. Very thoroughly fined must, however, is poor in pectins - that is, carbohydrate polymers- which have the ability to fuse molecules, adding viscosity to wine and thereby giving it body. Wines poor in pectins have little body and are too easy to drink. Thus cold fermented wines are seldom faceted and complex. Their aroma structure is little altered by the transition from the juice stage to the wine stage."

As i think back, over the late harvest rieslings ive tried..

They've all had that riesling-acidity, which i love and hope to embrace in this batch...

Most of them peaked at 2yrs +, the sweetness was overbearing when they're younger.. I imagine if i'd let them hang around the house long enough, they would have been better at 3 & 4 years..

They were more toward the yellow-green color than they were the straw-color i assocoiate with something like a Chard.. But i wouldnt mind something in the middle, if it meant a little more structure

Most of the late harvests i've had tend to only express the aromatic notes - the pear, apple, flowers - in their flavors, the taste and smell seem to "ring the same bells", if that makes sense.. And the finishes havent been all-too impressive in length... Would "a little more structure" from some cold maceration, help spread out the time between these same bells being rung?

(smell)--(taste)--(finish)

Apple/Pear/Flower-Apple/Pear/Flower-Sweetness
vs
Apple/Pear/Flower---Apple-Pear-Flower--Sweetness

In essence, would it lengthen the experience? Would too much kill the sweetness on the finish? Or affect it at all? I dont wanna lose the sweetness on the finish, but if i could lengthen it...

Any thoughts out there?

 

[joeswine]

Yeast to do?

I would prefer champagne yeast, especially for the type of great the characteristics of the champagne yeast, but which are really looking for the late harvest wine. If you think about it . The finish of the wine is very smooth ,, aromatic and flavorful . I made this before it does best the champagne yeast it works with the natural characteristics of. The great................... cold fermentation is where it is really at with this one, but if you cannot all the more reason to use the champagne yeast is restrictive the amount of alcohol and give you but it will not kill your case. Just my thoughtsE

 

[Deezil]

Hey Joe, thanks for weighin in - appreciate it

Lalvin's champagne yeast is EC-1118, which is what came with my RJ Spagnols Riesling Ice Wine kit that i did in 2010, and did a good job there - 18% ABV, 1.050SG in the end, its still bulk aging & i actually had a taste just the other day - mind-blowing.

My aim with these fresh grapes is a little different, seeing as i have the ice wine kit @ 18% ABV / very sweet.. This time i'm shooting for 14-16% ABV / sweetness to match (less than the ice wine-sweet) but i want to play more with the profile which is why im considering 2 different yeasts, cold maceration & nighttime (1/2-cold) ferment...

I just read an article/blog last night from a local winemaker working with Madeleine Angevine (the grape im putting in the ground next spring - its Riesling-esque) and he was taste-testing a 5-6yr old wine that he had cold-macerated for 17 hours, and he was very pleased with the glass of wine with him.. I'm not going to this extreme with my Riesling grapes, but i aim rethinking a 4-6hr cold maceration as opposed to just 1-2hrs because i would like these bottles to reach the same 5-6yrs with no problems - who knows when i'll get late harvest grapes again, thats Mother Nature's choice.

Next year i plan on stepping it down yet another "notch" and working out a basic Riesling table wine (9-12% ABV) and probably from dry to semi-sweet/balanced - just trying to fill in my Cellar Blanks while Mother Nature works with me - or I with her..

 

[Deezil]

Well.. May not even be happening now..

Emailed "dude" today, told him the dwnpmt is in the mail, as we had previously worked out - only to get an email back that they've "sold out" based on harvest estimates, on "first come first serve" basis & was 'sorry' he didnt tell me earlier

150lbs isnt much, so theres a chance he'll pull it outta "somewhere" but... Isnt the point.. Big guy, little guy - you dont forget about your customer..

Fits into life, since my computer crashed on my birthday, damn-near knocked myself out with a blow to the head the next day, the apples got harvested early so i've been jumping over those (bout 80-100lbs) waiting for grape skins & gettin nagged-at for taking up half the freezer with blackberries (25lbs) - again waiting for grape skins... Only to find out there may not be any grape skins

Guess i should be glad i didnt place the order with MoreWine for the yeasts yet.. But oddly, i'm not.

 

[Deezil]

Got the comp back up and running

Found a few other sources for riesling grapes, that im still "feelin out"
Might have a drive to make this weekend
Havent given up

Gonna place the MoreWine-yeast order shortly

 

[Deezil]

All this searching, begging and pleading... And all i needed was a little faith

Just got an email for my original source, lettin me know he'd have my grapes this Sunday evening so it looks like im gonna be a hurtin unit on Monday/Tuesday..

Stay tuned, pics/mess to come

 

[ibglowin]

We want pics!

 

[Deezil]

Was told the Brix will be somewhere between 22 - 23..

Trying to figure out how to 'cross this bridge'..

So, i know i want residual sweetness
And, i know the yeasts i selected will handle all the sugars in the grapes

So i think theres two courses of action i can take

Uno - Siphon off a portion of must, k-meta/sorbate it & ferment the rest dry. Add the "f-pack" & have an 10-11% ABV finished wine (11.5-12% minus f-pack dillution)

Dos - Siphon off a portion of the must, k-meta/sorbate it.. Add a touch of sugar (either to about 13% for a finished-12% ABV or to 15% for a 14% finishd ABV) and ferment dry.. stabilize and add the "f-pack"

Any opinions?

I dont know the TA/pH
Wish i did, would help

Gotta work my way through this part, because it relates to how long of a cold soak i'll do - more ABV, longer cold soak

 

[ibglowin]

Hey Dez,

I am making Port out of 1/2 my Petit Sirah. This stuff is inky black and has finished out to 16%ABV! I was faced with the same question. How do I back sweeten effectively. I decided to not pull any must out and mess with it but instead use some Alexanders Grape Concentrate. Its a 46oz can made from varietal grapes. I choose Zinfandel. This stuff is 68 Brix! I just looked and they have a Riesling Concentrate as well.

Since this is designed to make wine the only thing besides the grape concentrate is sulfites. Looks to me to be a perfect concoction to back sweeten!

 

[Deezil]

Anxiety is all gone..
Just got home..

150lbs of WA State Riesling

And a comparison between what my 1st year Riesling plants did in a Record-Setting 81-days without rain in Seattle.. And actual, ripe Riesling..

About to get ready destemming them

Plan is to destem & crush tonight
Cold-soak overnight
"Press" early morning tomorrow & put juice in 2 5-gallon carboys

At that point, i can put the carboys on ice
Yeasts, etc wont be in until Tuesday

How much k-meta should i use?
Dont want oxidation or fermentation starting itself

Whatch'all think?

 

[ibglowin]

Make a 10% solution of K-meta (5gms in 50ml) Then add 20ml of that to the must and stir well.

Good luck with the hand destem.......

I feel for you dude. Been there, done that!

 

[Deezil]

21 hours later...

Hand de-stemmed ... Check
Hand crushed ... Check
Hand pressed ... Check

Giving it some time to clarify now, theres a good bit of sediment i'll be able to rack off of shortly & that'll lower the levels

The color is thrown off because of the lighting / orange floors, but this'll show the amount

... Sleep, what?....

Was interesting, finally getting my hands on the bunches... There was quite a bit of shriveling so it'll be fun to take the SG/TA tests tomorrow

Little bit of mold, but it finally rained in WA after 81 days so im guessing thats where that came from (some places got 2+ inches).. Few earwigs, which i didnt expect, but no spiders, which i did expect.. Not much leaf debris..

Pretty happy overall, so far...
Gonna clarify it and see what the numbers look like tomorrow

It'll probably sit outside in the 40's tonight

The skins will be meeting my frozen blackberries here shortly.. Let that all soak overnight and i'll take readings on that tomorrow too