Help! Fruit Flavour too Faint in a Fruit Wine!

[Asmarino]

I have made a prickly pear wine that has fermented to dryness (FG 0.994). It frankly tastes like yeast, alcohol and nothing else. It was slightly acidic to my shock, because Prickly pear doesn't have much acidity. I can’t find the prickly pear flavour anywhere. I could previously when I was around 10% ABV. What do I need to do to bring it back? I did intend to backsweeten to medium-bodied (~1.06). Help! Send advice.

My recipe was

• 8 kg of peeled prickly pear roughly juiced with a pump-action manual food processor yielding ~ 8 litres of prickly pear juice
• Added about 10 litres of water and measured the gravity (1.080)
• Sulphited with two Campden tablets but it was still bubbling so added another two, two days later
• Chaptalized to 1.120 with table sugar
• Used a 2L starter a la @winemaker81 of a 1 sachet each of Red Star’s Premier Cuvee and Premier Blanc
• Removed the seeds and pulp (was brewing in a bag) after a week, after the must was coloured because I do not have pectic enzyme
• Dropped gravity from 1.120 to 0.994 in 3 weeks, then racked off of spent yeast (no remnants of fruit/gross lees, BIAB people!)

I only later learned of the practice of fermenting 100% fruit, and I’m now fairly versed in making liqueurs and adding fruit to secondary. Only I don’t know which is best for a more rapid turnaround because I need to bottle and re-use my fermenter (I only have two 5gal plastic buckets) for another round before the pears go out of season in another two weeks.

 

[Ohio Bob]

I have made a prickly pear wine that has fermented to dryness (FG 0.994). It frankly tastes like yeast, alcohol and nothing else. It was slightly acidic to my shock, because Prickly pear doesn't have much acidity. I can’t find the prickly pear flavour anywhere. I could previously when I was around 10% ABV. What do I need to do to bring it back? I did intend to backsweeten to medium-bodied (~1.06). Help! Send advice.

My recipe was

• 8 kg of peeled prickly pear roughly juiced with a pump-action manual food processor yielding ~ 8 litres of prickly pear juice
• Added about 10 litres of water and measured the gravity (1.080)
• Sulphited with two Campden tablets but it was still bubbling so added another two, two days later
• Chaptalized to 1.120 with table sugar
• Used a 2L starter a la @winemaker81 of a 1 sachet each of Red Star’s Premier Cuvee and Premier Blanc
• Removed the seeds and pulp (was brewing in a bag) after a week, after the must was coloured because I do not have pectic enzyme
• Dropped gravity from 1.120 to 0.994 in 3 weeks, then racked off of spent yeast (no remnants of fruit/gross lees, BIAB people!)

I only later learned of the practice of fermenting 100% fruit, and I’m now fairly versed in making liqueurs and adding fruit to secondary. Only I don’t know which is best for a more rapid turnaround because I need to bottle and re-use my fermenter (I only have two 5gal plastic buckets) for another round before the pears go out of season in another two weeks.

Well... Sad to say I think it’s been a hard lesson that way too much water was used, both in straight additions and the yeast starter too. The yeast starter only needed 100ml of water.

I can understand if you don’t want to throw it away, but it’s essentially alcoholic water. You could use it for topping off carboys as long as it’s used sparingly.

 

[Asmarino]

Well... Sad to say I think it’s been a hard lesson that way too much water was used, both in straight additions and the yeast starter too. The yeast starter only needed 100ml of water.

I can understand if you don’t want to throw it away, but it’s essentially alcoholic water. You could use it for topping off carboys as long as it’s used sparingly.

I know you did nothing wrong, but I so wish WMT had a 'dislike' button right now. Have a like instead, but know it was done very, very grudgingly. Thank you.

 

[Ohio Bob]

What do I need to do to bring it back? I did intend to backsweeten to medium-bodied (~1.06). Help! Send advice.

Why do you have to shoot the messenger when you asked what could be done?

 

[Asmarino]

I gave you a 'like', didn't I? And I can take it back. (I think).
Seriously though, thank you @Ohio Bob. You gave me an idea to keep adding more sugar to this, raise the ABV to 20%, start a new 8 litre ferment of pure fruit and let it get to 5%, and blend with the first as a fortification.

 

[winemaker81]

One thing you can do is add more fruit to the wine. I'd use something cheap as it may not turn out as well as you hope. This will change the character of the wine completely, but you may have something drinkable.

What is your current volume, about 17 liters?

 

[Asmarino]

One thing you can do is add more fruit to the wine. I'd use something cheap as it may not turn out as well as you hope. This will change the character of the wine completely, but you may have something drinkable.

What is your current volume, about 17 liters?

Yes, my current vol is 17 liters. The fruit is very cheap here, I got 150 of them that yield ~ 8 liters for less than 10 USD. What did you have in mind?

 

[Rocky]

I have made a prickly pear wine that has fermented to dryness (FG 0.994). It frankly tastes like yeast, alcohol and nothing else. It was slightly acidic to my shock, because Prickly pear doesn't have much acidity. I can’t find the prickly pear flavour anywhere. I could previously when I was around 10% ABV. What do I need to do to bring it back? I did intend to backsweeten to medium-bodied (~1.06). Help! Send advice.

My recipe was

• 8 kg of peeled prickly pear roughly juiced with a pump-action manual food processor yielding ~ 8 litres of prickly pear juice
• Added about 10 litres of water and measured the gravity (1.080)
• Sulphited with two Campden tablets but it was still bubbling so added another two, two days later
• Chaptalized to 1.120 with table sugar
• Used a 2L starter a la @winemaker81 of a 1 sachet each of Red Star’s Premier Cuvee and Premier Blanc
• Removed the seeds and pulp (was brewing in a bag) after a week, after the must was coloured because I do not have pectic enzyme
• Dropped gravity from 1.120 to 0.994 in 3 weeks, then racked off of spent yeast (no remnants of fruit/gross lees, BIAB people!)

I only later learned of the practice of fermenting 100% fruit, and I’m now fairly versed in making liqueurs and adding fruit to secondary. Only I don’t know which is best for a more rapid turnaround because I need to bottle and re-use my fermenter (I only have two 5gal plastic buckets) for another round before the pears go out of season in another two weeks.

Firstly, let me say that the only fruit wine I have made is blackberry, and it turned out fine.

Your final gravity (0.994) indicates very little if any sugar remaining. You also state that you plan to back sweeten. I suggest taking a small amount of the wine and back sweetening it as you plan and see if that improves the taste. The second suggestion I would have would be to add a prickly pear extract. I have used extracts with certain wines successfully. For example, I use a green apply extract in my Rieslings because I like that background flavor. Bench test it carefully! A little extract has a great effect. Extracts are normally alcohol based natural flavorings.

Good luck!

 

[Asmarino]

Firstly, let me say that the only fruit wine I have made is blackberry, and it turned out fine.

Your final gravity (0.994) indicates very little if any sugar remaining. You also state that you plan to back sweeten. I suggest taking a small amount of the wine and back sweetening it as you plan and see if that improves the taste. The second suggestion I would have would be to add a prickly pear extract. I have used extracts with certain wines successfully. For example, I use a green apply extract in my Rieslings because I like that background flavor. Bench test it carefully! A little extract has a great effect. Extracts are normally alcohol based natural flavorings.

Good luck!

Ah, thank you. I've been thinking of that too (I've been thinking about everything, alot). You're absolutely right about the bench test. I'll try that in a half gallon and if that fails, I'll just think of the whole thing as coloured sugar wash. Or as @Ohio Bob aptly called it "alcoholic water".

 

[winemaker81]

@Rocky's idea to taste test a bit with sugar should be your first step. A small amount of sugar can greatly change the aroma and taste of fruit wines. Do that before considering other options.

Yes, my current vol is 17 liters. The fruit is very cheap here, I got 150 of them that yield ~ 8 liters for less than 10 USD. What did you have in mind?

Idea 1:

If the prickly pear is cheap, then getting more of it and adding the juice may fix the problem, but it will increase your volume.

Your current wine is only 40% juice, which accounts for the low taste. Another 8 liters would bump that to 57%, and 16 liters bumps it to 67%.

Idea 2:

But ... now I'm wondering if that's throwing good juice after bad. You may be better off making a fresh wine with the new purchase.

Is there another strong tasting fruit that you can add to the first wine? It will greatly change the character, but if you like it, that doesn't matter.

Idea 3:

Alternately, do nothing new to the current wine. It will make a good cooking wine and you can make wine drinks with it. Put some cut-up fruit and a bit of extra sugar in a pitcher, add wine, let it steep for an hour.

 

[Asmarino]

@Rocky's idea to taste test a bit with sugar should be your first step. A small amount of sugar can greatly change the aroma and taste of fruit wines. Do that before considering other options.


Idea 1:

If the prickly pear is cheap, then getting more of it and adding the juice may fix the problem, but it will increase your volume.

Your current wine is only 40% juice, which accounts for the low taste. Another 8 liters would bump that to 57%, and 16 liters bumps it to 67%.

Idea 2:

But ... now I'm wondering if that's throwing good juice after bad. You may be better off making a fresh wine with the new purchase.

Is there another strong tasting fruit that you can add to the first wine? It will greatly change the character, but if you like it, that doesn't matter.

Idea 3:

Alternately, do nothing new to the current wine. It will make a good cooking wine and you can make wine drinks with it. Put some cut-up fruit and a bit of extra sugar in a pitcher, add wine, let it steep for an hour.

First I get @Ohio Bob, then @Rocky and @winemaker81, I am honestly feeling starstruck rn.

All your ideas were really good. I can try the sugar right away; I have some peeled prickly pears in the fridge so I'll try blending a few and mixing with a cup of the wine and see if it's worth the trouble; if not, I can always donate it for marinades and ensure I get invited to all the barbecues, haha.

Again, thank you, all of you. This is a profoundly good forum.

 

[Rice_Guy]

* add a frozen fruit juice concentrate, yes it will change the overall flavor.
* Add a shelf stable fruit syrup as used in kits. I have apples and make “apple juice syrup” by boiling it down. You could try this on prickly pear juice.
* add low levels (1 or 2ml per five gallon) of an extract like almond extract. It again changes the overall aroma but if at low level would help build it up without being identified.

 

[Asmarino]

* add a frozen fruit juice concentrate, yes it will change the overall flavor.
* Add a shelf stable fruit syrup as used in kits. I have apples and make “apple juice syrup” by boiling it down. You could try this on prickly pear juice.

Solid advice! I've already looked up on how to make a fruit concentrate using freeze concentration because, frankly, boiled prickly pear smells atrocious.

* add low levels (1 or 2ml per five gallon) of an extract like almond extract. It again changes the overall aroma but if at low level would help build it up without being identified.

This is interesting. I was thinking of using a little vanilla extract to make the wine ''taste'' smoother. Will update after experimenting. Massive thank you.

 

[winemaker81]

I suggest you post your projected recipe before starting the next batch, starting a new thread. You'll get good feedback. It's far easier to point you to a good path than to fix problems.

 

[Rice_Guy]

There are a bunch of synthetic flavors in the US which are aimed at mixed drinks and slushy type products. Most are one dimensional, they have a dominant flavor but miss side notes. I will use at low levels as 1ml per 20 liters. I will combine two plus as raspberry with carmel to round out the notes. Low levels of hops (beer ingredient) can provide green and floral.

I wonder what is available in your part of the world? I don’t know cactus flavor, , , , and wonder what notes dominate.

 

[winechef]

Most fruit wines lack fruity flavor if dry, need to back sweeten. as stated i often make a syrup with original fruit about 1 liter and save it. start a new batch would be easier than trying to fix it.

if add enough juice/concentrate, might reduce your ABV too much, peaches plums and apples I usually use at least 10 to 12 kg of fruit peeled pitted for 20 liters,

could add some. juice and flavor it to. be a cooking wine, or make a vinegar from. it if can't salvage it

 

[Raptor99]

To just summarize the key points, the solution to a lack of fruit flavor is:
1) Use more fruit and less water,
2) When finished, stabilize and backsweeten to bring out the fruit flavor

I tried to salvage some of my early batches that had many problems, but I also learned important lessons to apply to future batches. Enjoy the adventure!

 

[Asmarino]

My internet connection, though free, is quite shitty and it seems it won't let me quote and reply to individual messages so I'll address you here.

winemaker81 said: I suggest you post your projected recipe before starting the next batch, starting a new thread. You'll get good feedback. It's far easier to point you to a good path than to fix problems.

That is a great advice and I'm taking it to heart.

@Rice_Guy said
There are a bunch of synthetic flavors in the US which are aimed at mixed drinks and slushy type products. Most are one dimensional, they have a dominant flavor but miss side notes. I will use at low levels as 1ml per 20 liters. I will combine two plus as raspberry with carmel to round out the notes. Low levels of hops (beer ingredient) can provide green and floral.
I wonder what is available in your part of the world? I don’t know cactus flavor, , , , and wonder what notes dominate.

Well, I've tested and decided that adding sugar ruins the wine despite a bit of body which is on the thin side. So I'm now considering adding a teensy bit of vanilla extract to hack the mouthfeel into something fuller. iirc vanilla is what everyone is thinking when they think smooth. Your idea came at a great time, actually!!

Most other flavours for slushies around here are predominantly strawberry and orange flavours that taste metallic to me (and I loathe them from the pits of my soul), so I'll pass.

FYI Cactus fruit/prickly pear/beles tastes best just before its ripe and it gives off a crunchier texture and a grassier taste. Generally though I find it tastes like a cross between a papaya and a watermelon and...something. I don't know how to write taste and Beles is so abundant here that its a culture shock in itself, meeting someone who's never had one. I wish I could've sent you one.

@winechef said
Most fruit wines lack fruity flavor if dry, need to back sweeten. as stated i often make a syrup with original fruit about 1 liter and save it. start a new batch would be easier than trying to fix it.
if add enough juice/concentrate, might reduce your ABV too much, peaches plums and apples I usually use at least 10 to 12 kg of fruit peeled pitted for 20 liters, could add some. juice and flavor it to. be a cooking wine, or make a vinegar from. it if can't salvage it
I'm taking this to heart, I will make a new batch with at least 16 kg from now on. I don't want to make a syrup because boiled cactus fruit smells bad and all the floral aromatics just dissipate.

@Raptor99 said :
To just summarize the key points, the solution to a lack of fruit flavor is:
1) Use more fruit and less water,
2) When finished, stabilize and backsweeten to bring out the fruit flavor

I tried to salvage some of my early batches that had many problems, but I also learned important lessons to apply to future batches. Enjoy the adventure!

Noted, noted, noted, and thank you, I already am!!!!

Sorry for the wall of text everyone (blame my internet), thank you for your inputs, you're all very lovely for taking the time to educate this noob.

 

[Rice_Guy]

If I was building up green flavors I might extract hops in grain alcohol for a month, then add that.
Gum Arabic builds viscosity in wines.