2018 Muscadines

[Johnd]

Ok. Do I toss the sample or pour it back in? I'll do that with tonights measurements.

If you sanitize everything that touches the wine, dump it back in.

 

[M38A1]

Alrighty, things are progressing John! Today was such a long day there's no way I can rack off #1 and #2 tonight as not being quite ready so they'll have to wait until tomorrow evening and probably be a little past 1.030. Which brings me to my next set of questions....

1) I'll clean/sanitize my siphon/tube, 5gal carboys, bungs and airlocks. Then I siphon from my plastic tub primary to my secondary carboy, right? I'll grab the SG and pH at that time. What do I do if the carboy doesn't fill to the top leaving headspace? Can I add something like a welches grape juice? I have no comparable wines (but I could get something at Specs if needed) I'll affix the airlock, fill it with vodka and smile, right?

2) Do I add anything at this point? I'm thinking when it transfers at 1.030 to the secondary it just sits there, percolates and I monitor it again daily for SG.

3) When we get to 1.000 or .995, then I kill the fermentation with something, right?

Looking down the road, I have on my shelf Gelatine Finnings, Sparkolloid Powder, Wine Tannin, Acid Blend and a bag of Bentonite to mix in 5gal of product. Should I get more/different stuff in the next few days?

This is exciting! And THANK YOU......

6 days post pitch--->

Bucket #1
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.5 / 3.4 / 3.3 / 3.2 / 3.2 / 3.3 / Not measured
SG: 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.060 / 1.050 / 1.035

Bucket #2
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.2 / 3.0 / 3.0 / 3.0 / 2.9 / 3.1 / Not measured
SG: 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.052 / 1.035

Bucket #3
Volume: 4-5/8 gallons
pH: 3.2 / 3.2 / 2.9 / 2.9 / 2.9 / 3.0 / Not measured
SG: 1.097 / 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.055 / 1.045

 

[Johnd]

Alrighty, things are progressing John! Today was such a long day there's no way I can rack off #1 and #2 tonight as not being quite ready so they'll have to wait until tomorrow evening and probably be a little past 1.030. Which brings me to my next set of questions....

1) I'll clean/sanitize my siphon/tube, 5gal carboys, bungs and airlocks. Then I siphon from my plastic tub primary to my secondary carboy, right? I'll grab the SG and pH at that time. What do I do if the carboy doesn't fill to the top leaving headspace? Can I add something like a welches grape juice? I have no comparable wines (but I could get something at Specs if needed) I'll affix the airlock, fill it with vodka and smile, right?

2) Do I add anything at this point? I'm thinking when it transfers at 1.030 to the secondary it just sits there, percolates and I monitor it again daily for SG.

3) When we get to 1.000 or .995, then I kill the fermentation with something, right?

Looking down the road, I have on my shelf Gelatine Finnings, Sparkolloid Powder, Wine Tannin, Acid Blend and a bag of Bentonite to mix in 5gal of product. Should I get more/different stuff in the next few days?

This is exciting! And THANK YOU......

6 days post pitch--->

Bucket #1
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.5 / 3.4 / 3.3 / 3.2 / 3.2 / 3.3 / Not measured
SG: 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.060 / 1.050 / 1.035

Bucket #2
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.2 / 3.0 / 3.0 / 3.0 / 2.9 / 3.1 / Not measured
SG: 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.052 / 1.035

Bucket #3
Volume: 4-5/8 gallons
pH: 3.2 / 3.2 / 2.9 / 2.9 / 2.9 / 3.0 / Not measured
SG: 1.097 / 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.055 / 1.045

Yes on the sanitizing, be clean as possible. Fill your carboys above the shoulder, but not into the neck, and don’t transfer until you’re below 1.010, wait til 1.000 if you can. No need to top up at this point, CO2 is still protecting. Headspace is ok right now.

When you rack again later, after fermentation, be prepared to top up with an inexpensive wine, you should be able to find some rose’ to work just fine.

You don’t kill fermentation, it stops on its own when the sugar is all gone, SG below .998 and unchanged for three consecutive days.

You have enough chems for fining if you choose that route, pectic enzyme may be needed, but you’ve got time.

For now, stay the course and plan to rack / transfer near 1.000.

 

[sour_grapes]

John said it perfectly.

 

[M38A1]

Yes on the sanitizing, be clean as possible. Fill your carboys above the shoulder, but not into the neck, and don’t transfer until you’re below 1.010, wait til 1.000 if you can. No need to top up at this point, CO2 is still protecting. Headspace is ok right now.

When you rack again later, after fermentation, be prepared to top up with an inexpensive wine, you should be able to find some rose’ to work just fine.

You don’t kill fermentation, it stops on its own when the sugar is all gone, SG below .998 and unchanged for three consecutive days.

You have enough chems for fining if you choose that route, pectic enzyme may be needed, but you’ve got time.

For now, stay the course and plan to rack / transfer near 1.000.

John said it perfectly.

Thank you - Thank you - Thank you!
Last night I was thinking about this and I recalled what you are saying. That either the sugars are gone or the yeast can't tolerate the alcohol content and dies on it's own. You two confirmed it so I'll rack #1 and #2 off tonight and report back. My kitchen smells wonderfully good now!

 

[M38A1]

Well, it's not pretty that's for sure.... Hmmmm.....

Moved all three primaries to secondary carboys fitted with airlocks this evening. Moved them at 1.02 / 1.02 and 1.03SG. I can't figure out what's so different than last year. Last year I pressed the grapes with a grape press, used about the same amount of water and sugar per 5-gal primaries, same yeast and that looked pretty, like a pale red should. This year was much the same with the only difference in that I used the bucket press and didn't include the must bag for the primary fermentation. If I were to say the one on the left was a wild grape wine I think most would agree. The middle and right one? They look more like apple cider to me. Oh well, let's just let them roll like they are and settle and see what happens, right? I've been reading many comments that time is your best friend for this first and subsequent racking. And yes - that's the settling already going on in those bottles. Those yeast and lees are thick. Very thick. This shot was taken as the last of the three was racked from primary to secondary carboy.

As a reference point, this was last year moving from primary to secondary carboy. The only real difference was the use of the press and the must bag was present for all of primary fermentation

 

[M38A1]

I suppose the color really boils down to the use of the must bag vs not using it?

 

[Johnd]

I suppose the color really boils down to the use of the must bag vs not using it?

It certainly does. The juice of most red / black grapes is clear, with colors being present in the skins. The longer the juice sits with, and is fermented with the skins, the more color that is extracted. By controlling just that, using Cabernet Sauvignon grapes, one could craft a very light rose’ or a dark brooding wine, and anything in between.

White wines typically look a bit brownish before clearing, those could certainly do the same. The one on the left may be your rose’.

 

[M38A1]

I have to admit, this is fun just watching the three glass carboys 'boil&roll' all on their own. With the glass, you can easily see all these little lava flows rising then sinking only to repeat themselves time and time again while the airlock just keeps burping away. I know - I'm easily amused....

On a serious note, my understanding is the fermentation will cease around the .995 mark. Do I have to do anything at this time other than just watch it and then measure SG when it appears to be slowing down considerably? Not sure I want to rack it with this much activity going on. And there must be 1/2 gallon of yeast/lees in the bottom of a couple and close to a gallon in another while still boiling/rolling. I also understand as long as it bubbles, I've got a layer of protection on top, so I'll need some direction in that racking/off-gassing part when we get there.

 

[Johnd]

I have to admit, this is fun just watching the three glass carboys 'boil&roll' all on their own. With the glass, you can easily see all these little lava flows rising then sinking only to repeat themselves time and time again while the airlock just keeps burping away. I know - I'm easily amused....

On a serious note, my understanding is the fermentation will cease around the .995 mark. Do I have to do anything at this time other than just watch it and then measure SG when it appears to be slowing down considerably? Not sure I want to rack it with this much activity going on. And there must be 1/2 gallon of yeast/lees in the bottom of a couple and close to a gallon in another while still boiling/rolling. I also understand as long as it bubbles, I've got a layer of protection on top, so I'll need some direction in that racking/off-gassing part when we get there.

You racked a little early, but have enough airspace to prevent a volcano, so no worries there.

SG’s can go as low as .990, so just take your readings daily. When you get the same reading below .998, three days in a row, you can safely assume that the yeast has done all it will do. At that point, you may still see airlock activity for a while as the CO2 begins to come out of solution, so don’t let that throw you. I like to let the wine sit a few more days, letting more sediment fall out and compact before racking. When you rack, leave the sediment behind, and add you pot. meta. at the rate of 1/4 tsp / 6 gallons, and TOP UP and airlock. You’ll have nothing further to do for 3 months unless you try manual degassing or adding agents to speed the clearing.

 

[M38A1]

Well crap. Now that I re-read your instructions above about moving from primary to secondary at 1.000 I feel pretty stupid. Please don't hate me for not following your guidance. I just had a brain hiccup and wasn't thinking and it certainly wasn't intentionally disobedient.

 

[Johnd]

Well crap. Now that I re-read your instructions above about moving from primary to secondary at 1.000 I feel pretty stupid. Please don't hate me for not following your guidance. I just had a brain hiccup and wasn't thinking and it certainly wasn't intentionally disobedient.

There are few absolutes in winemaking, and countless best practices, and this falls into the latter, though it will have more impact when you have skins in the mix.

 

[M38A1]

Update time and process questions!
So if I understand correctly, all the sugar should now be consumed and converted to alcohol at this point. This was day one reading of the SG at the 'done' mark, so I need to do this two more days and see if it changes, right? If it doesn't change any, then I go ahead and rack off the 'good stuff' into a clean sterilized carboy leaving the gross lees behind for the compost pile. When racked off to that clean secondary, that's also when I add potassium metabisulphite at the rate of 1/4 tsp / 6 gallons (to protect the new product against nasties), and TOP UP with the rose I bought and airlock it. I can then lit it sit for three months to settle and then check in on this batch, right?

OR.......
Is the manual degassing a 'best practices' thing and should I do it? And should I add clearing agents of any type and if so, when?

Right now I tried it and there's little doubt I made (well, the yeast made) alcohol. If my calculations are correct, this comes in about 13.75% ABV and it definitely has an alcohol smell and taste to it as well as a somewhat carbonated feel across the tongue. It's not really that great at the moment either so I'll need some guidance in that department when the appropriate time comes.



12 days post pitch--->

Bucket #1
Volume: 5.0 gallons
SG: 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.060 / 1.050 / 1.035 / .990

Bucket #2
Volume: 5.0 gallons
SG: 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.052 / 1.035 / .990

Bucket #3
Volume: 4-5/8 gallons
SG: 1.097 / 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.055 / 1.045 / 1.000

 

[Johnd]

Update time and process questions!
So if I understand correctly, all the sugar should now be consumed and converted to alcohol at this point. This was day one reading of the SG at the 'done' mark, so I need to do this two more days and see if it changes, right? If it doesn't change any, then I go ahead and rack off the 'good stuff' into a clean sterilized carboy leaving the gross lees behind for the compost pile. When racked off to that clean secondary, that's also when I add potassium metabisulphite at the rate of 1/4 tsp / 6 gallons (to protect the new product against nasties), and TOP UP with the rose I bought and airlock it. I can then lit it sit for three months to settle and then check in on this batch, right?

OR.......
Is the manual degassing a 'best practices' thing and should I do it? And should I add clearing agents of any type and if so, when?

Right now I tried it and there's little doubt I made (well, the yeast made) alcohol. If my calculations are correct, this comes in about 13.75% ABV and it definitely has an alcohol smell and taste to it as well as a somewhat carbonated feel across the tongue. It's not really that great at the moment either so I'll need some guidance in that department when the appropriate time comes.



12 days post pitch--->

Bucket #1
Volume: 5.0 gallons
SG: 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.060 / 1.050 / 1.035 / .990

Bucket #2
Volume: 5.0 gallons
SG: 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.052 / 1.035 / .990

Bucket #3
Volume: 4-5/8 gallons
SG: 1.097 / 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.055 / 1.045 / 1.000

You are correct with your process, though bucket 3 may still need some time to complete. If you intend to age your wine in bulk (that would be my suggestion) then you do not need to degas, time will allow the gas to dissipate, and will also allow the flavors to develop.

 

[M38A1]

Thank you, John.

You are correct with your process, though bucket 3 may still need some time to complete. If you intend to age your wine in bulk (that would be my suggestion) then you do not need to degas, time will allow the gas to dissipate, and will also allow the flavors to develop.

So "bulk" aging is clearing it in the carboy and letting it age there, right? The other is "bottle aging" where you degas, bottle and then let it age?

 

[Johnd]

Thank you, John.


So "bulk" aging is clearing it in the carboy and letting it age there, right? The other is "bottle aging" where you degas, bottle and then let it age?

That is mostly correct, when we speak of "bulk" aging, it generally refers to storing your wine in large vessels (carboys, barrels, tanks), where your wine will both clear and degas, before going into the bottle. In bulk is definitely the place that you want your wine to degas and clear up, so you don't put gassy or cloudy wines in bottles. Additionally, during this time, the wine also begins to mature and develop its flavor profile and aroma, so you still have a chance to make any modifications that you see fit prior to bottling.

 

[M38A1]

We're at the bingo-point on two of the three! Yay!!!!

So what I'll do is let this sit 2 more days until Thursday night, then rack off #1 and #2 to clean carboys, add K-Meta at your rate above, top off with the Rose' and airlock them and into the closet they go. I'll let #3 run it's course and do the same when I get those three days of no movement.

Then I suppose we get to talk about what happens in those next three months, right? I'm guessing keep an eye on the airlock fluid level for sure.

14 days post pitch--->

Bucket #1
Volume: 5.0 gallons
SG: 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.060 / 1.050 / 1.035 / .990 / .990 day 3

Bucket #2
Volume: 5.0 gallons
SG: 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.052 / 1.035 / .990 / .990 day 3

Bucket #3
Volume: 4-5/8 gallons
SG: 1.097 / 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.055 / 1.045 / 1.000 / .994

 

[Johnd]

@M38A1 said: “Then I suppose we get to talk about what happens in those next three months, right? I'm guessing keep an eye on the airlock fluid level for sure.”

Yep, keep an eye on it, should be fine, but check it, and that’s it.

Now’s when it gets fun, the bug has bitten, you’ve gained understanding of the process, and you’ll probably start looking to ferment anything that can’t run away. Fall grape season is around the corner, find some grape growers in your area or a distributor, try your hand at fruit, whatever you can to keep from messing with the completed batches.

 

[M38A1]

@M38A1 said: “Then I suppose we get to talk about what happens in those next three months, right? I'm guessing keep an eye on the airlock fluid level for sure.”

Yep, keep an eye on it, should be fine, but check it, and that’s it.

Now’s when it gets fun, the bug has bitten, you’ve gained understanding of the process, and you’ll probably start looking to ferment anything that can’t run away. Fall grape season is around the corner, find some grape growers in your area or a distributor, try your hand at fruit, whatever you can to keep from messing with the completed batches.

I think you're right! I bought two more 3-gal glass carboys last night since I think the 3's seem a little easier to work with. Then again, if I go through all the trouble/same steps - why don't I just get five or six gallon ones? Yep Johnd, the bug has bitten! Then I go back and look at the fact I've got those three 5gal Muscadine's ready to rack/age, about 3 gal of last years Muscadines in PF, and my IKEA Ligonberry approaching it's bingo-point to rack/age I'd say that's plenty for my first 'real' attempt. Of course, those new 3gal's are for the strawberry I want to kick off this weekend. And there's that WE CabSav 5gal I bought to make a kit wine along with the 1gal Merlot and 1gal Moscotto. Yikes. That's a lot of wine......

Seriously though, I'm forever grateful for all the time and effort you and the others have provided in this adventure. While this batch is going, I'll go back and re-read this thread and try to document it into proper steps along with my 'why' notes to reinforce what I've learned. This I believe has provided a solid base from which I can try to be consistent, and only then can I start 'playing' to see/taste the differences.

 

[cmason1957]

I will second your comment of going through all the same steps to make 3 gallons as you do to make 5 or 6 gallons. I very, very seldom make a 3 gallon batch of any anything, why bother for 15 bottles. I even do my higher alcohol ports in 750 Ml bottles.