aerobic vs anaerobic fermentation

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Its sacc c...wine, bread, beer, it does it all.

Bread and wine (must) are very different. The level of sugar in bread is a tad lower than that in must.

Once sufficient biomass is achieved, yeast moves from reproduction to either fermentation or respiration if oxygen is present. Sugar level determines which it will be. Sugar levels greater than .2% cause the yeast to perform fermentation rather respiration.

Two files are attached to include a two part article.

From page 8 of v3-17-1. (The first part of the article starts on page 1 of v3-16-3)

"At this point one may ask the question that, if respiration is the more
energy efficient process, why does yeast metabolize sugar by way of fermentation? The answer lies in the regulation mechanisms involved in the
two metabolic pathways.

Pasteur effect
Pasteur observed that at low glucose concentrations, aeration induced more biomass and less alcohol production. He inferred that fermentation was inhibited by respiration. Suppression of fermentation by oxygen is called the Pasteur effect. In Saccharomyces yeast, respiration occurs only under low glucose (< 2 g/L) concentration conditions.

Crabtree effect
In a high glucose concentration such as in grape juice, the yeast degrades
sugar by way of fermentation even if oxygen is present. This phenomenon was noted by Crabtree (1929) and is called the Crabtree effect or the
Pasteur contrary effect. In wine yeast, sugar can be degraded either by respiration or by fermentation. The choice of metabolic pathway is glucose (fructose) concentration dependent. Since grape must is rich in sugar, fermentation is the preferred metabolic pathway. The aeration of must
stimulates fermentation by favoring the formation of sterols and fatty acids
but not by favoring respiration.

View attachment v3-16-3.pdf
View attachment v3-17-1.pdf


For me, the only flysh*t left to pick out of the pepper is whether or not 'anaerobic' is the appropriate term for a process taking place in the presence of oxygen when the process doesn't involve the oxygen. It makes perfect sense to me to have an anaerobic process take place in an aerobic environment.
 
I see you managed to leave out the other short paragraph under "Effect of Oxygen." Here it is the section in its entirety so as to introduce some level of academic honesty:

"The fermentation process does not require oxygen. If oxygen is present, some species of yeast (e.g., Kluyveromyces lactis or Kluyveromyces lipolytica) will oxidize pyruvate completely to carbon dioxide and water. Thus, these species of yeast will produce ethanol only in an anaerobic environment. This process is called cellular respiration.

However, many yeasts such as the commonly used baker's yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae, or fission yeast Schizosaccharomyces pombe, prefer fermentation to respiration. These yeasts will produce ethanol even under aerobic conditions, if they are provided with the right kind of nutrition."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermentation_(biochemistry)


But winemaking yeasts are not among that group.
 
For me, the only flysh*t left to pick out of the pepper is whether or not 'anaerobic' is the appropriate term for a process taking place in the presence of oxygen when the process doesn't involve the oxygen. It makes perfect sense to me to have an anaerobic process take place in an aerobic environment.

There is nothing in the definition of anaerobic to suggest it must take place in an environment with no oxygen. The definition is that the process itself does not involve oxygen in any way. Whether or not it is surrounded by oxygen during this process makes no difference (to the definition, anyway).
 
There is nothing in the definition of anaerobic to suggest it must take place in an environment with no oxygen. The definition is that the process itself does not involve oxygen in any way. Whether or not it is surrounded by oxygen during this process makes no difference (to the definition, anyway).


Here, Here! (Clapping loudly as if in the British Parlement).

If you look at the chemical equasion for fermentation, O2 does NOT come into play!

That said, I still say (to be correct) that we should be using the terms "Anarobic Fermentation" and "Aerobic Reproduction".
 
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That said, I still say (to be correct) that we should be using the terms "Anarobic Fermentation" and "Aerobic Reproduction".

No. "Aerobic" and "reproduction" do not go together. Aerobic describes a type of respiration.
 
If you want to make sherry, sure. Sherry producers do just that, and then successfully market their product. But no, I'm not suggesting that. What I'm saying is that it isn't as simple as what was being said. Clearly this technique works fine without oxidizing wine, so suggesting that oxygen must be removed to produce wine is simply not true.
QUOTE]

Yes, but we need to be clear. It may work for THAT wine technique, but it is equally untrue that you can allow oxygen in for standard winemaking protocol and not worry about it oxidizing the wine.

I am unfamiliar with the process behind the wine you mention, but it has to differ from the methods typically discussed here. Adding oxygen to wine is used as one method to limit alcohol content of wine (it allows the sugar to be consumed out via aerobic respiration once desired alcohol content has been approached) but in general I'm unconvinced that allowing oxygen into standard wines is preferable or good.
 
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Yes, in the presence of oxygen (anerobic conditions), the fermentation process, however, DOES NOT MAKE USE OF THAT OXYGEN, thus it is still an ANEROBIC process!

This is a little old, but what I have available and part of what I have researched that has built my understanding yeast.

“It was shown by Swanson & Clifton (1948) for the first time that most of the aerobic growth of a yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) on glucose proceeds via fermentation. A quantitative study of the aerobic growth of yeast made by Lemoigne, Aubert & Millet (1954) showed a diauxic growth on high concentrations of glucose: a fast growth involving intensive aerobic fermentation, followed by a slow growth involving oxidation of the accumulated ethanol. At lower glucose concentrations (5-10 mg./100 ml.) the absence of any noticeable diauxie suggested that the pathway used for the degradation of glucose might depend on the glucose concentration.
Slonimski (1956) studied the rate of respiratory adaptation in Saccharomyces
cerevisiae as a function of the glucose concentration. At low concentrations of glucose (below ~ x ~ O - ~ Mthe) rate of respiratory adaptation increased as the concentration of glucose was increased. This relationship was to be expected since the aerobic fermentation of glucose proceeds very slowly a t these glucose concentrations and severely limits the supply of energy to the organisms. But a t concentrations of glucose higher than 6x10-3~, the rate of adaptation to aerobic conditions decreased as the concentration of glucose was increased. Simultaneously, as the concentration of glucose increased, the rate of aerobic fermentation also increased. It is this inhibition of the synthesis of respiratory enzymes by the high fermentation rates which occur a t high glucose concentrations which is known as the contre-effet Pasteur. Slonimski’s work, which was done with suspensions of organisms, was
followed by a more extensive study of the contre-effet Pasteur in a growing
yeast (Ephrussi, Slonimski, Yotsuyanagi & Tavlitzki, 1956). Starting a culture in the presence of 3 yo (w/v) glucose with organisms fully adapted to aerobic conditions, the following was observed : the rate of aerobic fermentation ( Qco, ferm.) increased sharply during the phase of exponential growth; a t the same time the rate of respiration (Qo,) decreased to a low value. A few generations before the end of the exponential phase the glucose no longer saturated the fermentation system, and as a result the Qco, ferm. decreased to a low value; simultaneously the Qo, increased (respiratory adaptation). This experiment showed clearly that the contre-effet Pasteur is an important part of the physiology of a yeast like S. cerevisiae growing in a high concentration of glucose.”

“If one compares a yeast strain which degrades glucose by aerobic fermentation, like S. cerevisiae normal strain, with a strain which degrades glucose by respiration, like Candida tropicalis (an organism which has no Crabtree effect), one can eliminate the first possibility. Growing S. cerevisiae
organisms have an aerobic fermentation rate of 78 pl. CO,/lO min./107 rganisms, which corresponds to a degradation rate of 1.74 pmoles glucose/lO min./107 organisms. Candida tropicalis grew at about the same rate with a respiration rate of 27.7 p l . O,/lO min./107 organisms, i.e. a degradation rate of only 0.21 pmole glucose/lO min./107 organisms. It is thus clear that the growth-limiting factor for organisms when degrading a sugar by aerobic fermentation is not the rate of intermediary metabolites synthesis but rather the rate of energy production. Therefore the Crabtree effect must be considered as the repression of an energy-producing system, respiration, by another energy-producing system, fermentation. Thus, when respiration occurs simultaneously with aerobic fermentation, as is the case with the normal strain of S . cerevisiae growing on galactose, the compensation that he respiration brings to the deficient rate of fermentation is actually an energy compensation.”


De Deken, R. H. (1966). The crabtree effect: A regulatory system in yeast. Journal of General Microbiology, 44, 149-156. Retrieved from http://mic.sgmjournals.org/content/44/2/149.full.pdf

Also noted in this article that of the strains they tested, 50% had the crabtree effect.

If you have a newer study that redefines this I'm all ears, I am always happy to learn something new...I just don't throw out what I know that is based off research unless its newer research.
 
If you have a newer study that redefines this I'm all ears, I am always happy to learn something new...I just don't throw out what I know that is based off research unless its newer research.

Seems to agree with what I posted. Was there an additional point this makes that I missed?
 
Seems to agree with what I posted. Was there an additional point this makes that I missed?

Yeah, the crabtree effect is pretty well understood and everything my memory and what I have read, science calls it aerobic fermentation. Its been a decade since my last science class so perhaps they have redefined it in the terms JohnT is arguing towards. However, I have yet to see this in a published document, so until I do, I will stick with what I know to be the science communities terminology.

The rub of it is, it really doesn't make much difference. What's important is that we know what oxygen does to help reproduction along and what lack or excess of it can do. Just because I believe that JohnT is not using the proper term, doesn't mean that he isn't making outstanding wine.
 
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