Aging: Bulk vs bottle

[NorCal]

When you think about it, the carboy is just a big bottle. As long as you can seal it well, it can be safely stored for many years. The key is getting it to seal at the opening.
Jamming in an oversized piece of bark provides a proven seal in a bottle, you just need to find a solid bung that will do the same, if you want to age in a carboy.

 

[JohnT]

When you think about it, the carboy is just a big bottle. As long as you can seal it well, it can be safely stored for many years. The key is getting it to seal at the opening.
Jamming in an oversized piece of bark provides a proven seal in a bottle, you just need to find a solid bung that will do the same, if you want to age in a carboy.

I came across this fellow that worked for a water cooler company. He ended up giving me a whole box of these.....

They work great, are food safe, and simply snap on. Unfortunately, they are not reusable.

 

[dcbrown73]

When you think about it, the carboy is just a big bottle. As long as you can seal it well, it can be safely stored for many years. The key is getting it to seal at the opening.
Jamming in an oversized piece of bark provides a proven seal in a bottle, you just need to find a solid bung that will do the same, if you want to age in a carboy.

Silicone stoppers? Seems if there was a little gas left, it could release it without allowing oxygen to enter after the fact.

 

[terrymck]

It is available via the Way Back Machine at

Wow impressive Opus!

I must admit I am becoming more confident in carboy storage having a batch in for 4 months now. Ever since I have used Steve's head space eliminator I have not bothered to top up and no longer adulterate my wine or waste already bottled product. I was apprehensive for awhile about not topping and wanted to bottle as soon as possible. The longer a carboy goes under vaccume the more comfortable I become.

 

[jsbeckton]

For those that age in a carboy with a solid stopper, any issues with temperature changes pushing the stopper out due to the slight change in headspace?

 

[bkisel]

For those that age in a carboy with a solid stopper, any issues with temperature changes pushing the stopper out due to the slight change in headspace?

Interesting question. Don't know about solid bungs/stoppers but I use two layers of Saran Wrap and will notice bulking in and out of the wrap due, I believe, to changes in atmospheric pressure.

 

[dcbrown73]

For those that age in a carboy with a solid stopper, any issues with temperature changes pushing the stopper out due to the slight change in headspace?

Interesting question. Don't know about solid bungs/stoppers but I use two layers of Saran Wrap and will notice bulking in and out of the wrap due, I believe, to changes in atmospheric pressure.

This is where I was thinking about switching to those silicone breathable stoppers.

They are basically like solid bungs, but actually do have a hole. It's plugged, but internal pressure can push it out just enough to allow the gas to escape then close back up.

This high quality Silicone Stopper gives a great airtight seal while still allowing gasses to escape.

Fits 3,5,6 & 6.5 Gallon glass carboys and 500ml flasks. This breathable Silicone Carboy Stopper acts as both a solid stopper and an airlock. The unique design allows CO2 pressure to escape but keeps oxygen and airborne contamination out. Beer makers love using it during the ferment because it creates a vacuum when the wort cools, instead of pulling water in from your traditional airlock. The airtight seal is great for extended lager fermentations when CO2 production is still present but only very slightly.

Measures 1 1/2" wide at the top and 1/8" at the bottom.​

 

[bkisel]

A 1-way (out) gas valve stopper... that should work.

 

[Johny99]

For those that age in a carboy with a solid stopper, any issues with temperature changes pushing the stopper out due to the slight change in headspace?

Only when I put the stopper in cold, as in just finished cold stabilization and racking. Otherwise, I push them in and am ok. My winery is controlled within 5 deg F, so that helps. If you have trouble with them coming out, you can use one wrap of cling wrap to give some more friction.

 

[ibglowin]

Yes, I have lots of experience with solid stoppers and they will push the stopper out if the temperature rises (alcohol will expand) and push the stopper. You need to have a stable temperature or at worst temperature must be falling to use them. You can of course use a piece of duct tape for a little extra insurance.

I have a temperature controlled winery/cellar and they work great under these conditions.

For those that age in a carboy with a solid stopper, any issues with temperature changes pushing the stopper out due to the slight change in headspace?

 

[jsbeckton]

I am just aging in my basement so I will get a gradual temp swing over the year. I guess my other question is do you fully degas BEFORE adding the solid stopper? Was thinking that it I want to bulk age/degass I would need to have and airlock on to allow the gas to escape.

 

[ibglowin]

Absolutely. It must be fully degassed and stabilized before a solid stopper is even considered.

I am just aging in my basement so I will get a gradual temp swing over the year. I guess my other question is do you fully degas BEFORE adding the solid stopper? Was thinking that it I want to bulk age/degass I would need to have and airlock on to allow the gas to escape.

 

[richmke]

do you fully degas BEFORE adding the solid stopper? Was thinking that it I want to bulk age/degass

I use a vented silicone bung, and do NOT degas. The vent is a one-way, and lets the gas out. Negative pressure will suck the bung down. Sometimes I have to release the vacuum to take off the bung.

 

[Scooter68]

A properly maintained Airlock with a good sealing cap or drilled bung is unlikely to allow a large amount of air into the carboy. Sure bottling does give you a more precise seal but as so many others have mentioned. If your wine throws off sediment a month or 6 months later you are stuck. In a carboy, you are going to rack and perhaps filter just before bottling.

We aren't talking about the difference in a 'topped off plastic bucket and a bottle or carboy here. In reality the surface area on the common 1 - 5 gallon carboy is far less than the total surface area of the bottles of wine that carboy will fill. And the same applies to the volume of air.

Seems like a tempest in a teapot. The only concern I have is for the newbie who pops in a solid bung 6 weeks or even 3 months into the aging process. For them, if that solid bung pops out they are not going to know about it until the go the check the wine and that could happen 1 day or 1 month after the bung pops loose - talk about exposure to O2 and oxidation.

 

[Voltron]

Would you add sorbate before adding a solid bung??

 

[jgmann67]

Would you add sorbate before adding a solid bung??

In a dry (or nearly dry and stable) wine, I wouldn't add sorbate at any time during the process.

 

[drainsurgeon]

My first thought is that Vandergrift if probably right. Adding k-meta every three months and an occasionally racking is going to expose a lot more o2 than in the bottle.

This does raise a question for me that I've thought about for a while. If bulk aging requires additional dosing of sulfides every 3 months, where does it go to and why doesn't that happen in the bottle?

 

[ibglowin]

Airlocks breath with changes in ATM pressure. Stoppers, not so much. That is my results of experiments over time using my A/O rig and doing side by side testing of two wines in a 23L carboy one with an airlock and one with a solid stopper. If the temps in your storage area are stable or falling it is safe to use a solid stopper.

Where does the SO2 go? It gets tied up with oxygen and is no longer "free" SO2 available to protect your wine from oxidation.

 

[Johny99]

My first thought is that Vandergrift if probably right. Adding k-meta every three months and an occasionally racking is going to expose a lot more o2 than in the bottle.

This does raise a question for me that I've thought about for a while. If bulk aging requires additional dosing of sulfides every 3 months, where does it go to and why doesn't that happen in the bottle?

It does happen in the bottle as well. The SO2 gets bound by the O2. However, O2 ingress is very slow in the bottle with a good cork, and even slower with some of the synthetics or a screw top. Thus, the free SO2 level doesn't drop as quickly. A fun experiment is to test after time in the bottle with different closures. I've not had the time to develop curves, but once I'm rid of a day job......

 

[trucknut]

Saran Topping!

When I first started into wine making, I feared the air locks would dry out while bulk aging. I wrapped saran wrap around the top portion of the air lock leaving a bit of bulkiness and sealing with a rubber band. At the time I had no idea this would slow down the air exchange thru the water.
Now I'm going to use this method for bulk aging as well as the solid rubber plug with a bulky saran rubber band topping in case the plugs lifts up.
My wine storage area has a very constant temperature, so far keeping the rubber plugs in the carboy.