Aging Petit Verdot - odd nose

[VinesnBines]

I have a Petit Verdot that has been aging for nearly one year in a stainless keg. I oaked it early with French and American oak. My samples have a strange nose almost funky, dull, dusty, no fruit, maybe even a whiff of kerosene. After allowing the sample to sit out for at least 30 minutes, the odd odors are gone and finally you get the dark fruits, dark cherry and dried fruits (raisins) but not a strong nose. The taste improves after the aeration.; no surprise. I'm trying to decide my next steps. Do I oak again? Do I try Redulees? I didn't have any problem with H2S during fermentation. Do I leave it alone? I expect it will need another 6 to 12 months of aging. Thoughts?

 

[Cynewulf]

This sounds similar to an issue @mainshipfred had with his Petit Verdot from Virginia grapes a few years ago. I thought it just tasted oxidized but he was pretty sure it was VA. I hate to be discouraging and hopefully there are other suggestions, but in his case I don’t think a solution was found. What was your process up to this point?

 

[Tim3]

Sounds like your wine could be slightly reduced. Sometimes racking and some oxygen exposure can help before bottling. So kudos for keeping air out during your winemaking process, but maybe next time let a little more in!

 

[Juniper Hill]

Kerosene does sound like a VA problem. I've had a similar problem where a wine I aged for 2 years in barrel smelled like acetone - I wasn't making regular sulfite additions. I'm not sure its fixable. You might want to consider giving a solid dose of sulfite and bottling it up. See if things dissipate with time. I don't think this is H2S as that's usually a rotten egg profile.

 

[Tim3]

Perhaps, but VA wouldn’t blow off after 30 minutes. So if it really blows off it’s most likely either reduced or hydrogen sulfide. Of course there could also be all 3, and the H2S portion of it just gets better after 30 minutes. Does it smell like nail polish remover? Or does it taste like vinegar?

 

[VinesnBines]

It does not smell like nail polish remover or taste like vinegar. My husband said he caught the whiff of maybe kerosene and that was from a different sample (carboy). The H2S is my prime suspect. I had a lot of trouble with stuck fermentation so I hit it with some EC1118 late in primary. I have sulfated regularly, maybe too much. Racking is my net thought. The aeration improvement is encouraging but I hate to move to bottle without trying to fix this dull nose.

 

[Cynewulf]

It does not smell like nail polish remover or taste like vinegar. My husband said he caught the whiff of maybe kerosene and that was from a different sample (carboy). The H2S is my prime suspect. I had a lot of trouble with stuck fermentation so I hit it with some EC1118 late in primary. I have sulfated regularly, maybe too much. Racking is my net thought. The aeration improvement is encouraging but I hate to move to bottle without trying to fix this dull nose.

How many times have you racked so far?

 

[winemaker81]

The H2S is my prime suspect.

If it's H2S, the "aroma" is quite remarkable. Even at low concentrations it's nasty.

I'd rack the wine, then stir a bit, e.g., 30 seconds with powered stirring rod, then change direction once. Not to aerate as much as drive off any excess gases. Then put it back in the carboy for a month to see what happens.

You may be experiencing a down point in the wine's life cycle. When we bulk age for 6 to 12 months, bottle, and not touch the wine for another 6 to 12 months, we don't experience a lot of things. Missing down points isn't bad in itself, but it means we don't develop an understanding of the cycle.

My winestix experiment taught me more about wine cycles than everything else put together. At the July 2021 tasting, all 4 carboys experienced an identical muting of aroma and flavor. 3 carboys were from the same batch and had been separated for 4 months at that point, while the 4th was a separate batch. Yet all 4 went through a swing at the same time. At this time I do not have an explanation.

 

[mainshipfred]

This sounds similar to an issue @mainshipfred had with his Petit Verdot from Virginia grapes a few years ago. I thought it just tasted oxidized but he was pretty sure it was VA. I hate to be discouraging and hopefully there are other suggestions, but in his case I don’t think a solution was found. What was your process up to this point?

Erik, that was the 2018. I also gave you a bottle of 2019. Did you remember if you tasted the same thing, I'm getting a little of it and I also get it in the 2020 which is still in the barrel. I'm still convinced the 18 is VA but I also think the taste has something to do with PV in general since it is typically a blending wine. I have a bottle of the 2019 entered in the American Wine Society Amateur Competition. The judging is yesterday through tomorrow. Really can't wait to see what the judges think.

 

[VinesnBines]

I'll have to check my notes but I think I only racked twice after primary. The last racking would have been early Spring, 2021. I hope it is a down time. I really need to leave it alone and quit fussing over it.

Fred, let us know what the judges say.

 

[Cynewulf]

Erik, that was the 2018. I also gave you a bottle of 2019. Did you remember if you tasted the same thing, I'm getting a little of it and I also get it in the 2020 which is still in the barrel. I'm still convinced the 18 is VA but I also think the taste has something to do with PV in general since it is typically a blending wine. I have a bottle of the 2019 entered in the American Wine Society Amateur Competition. The judging is yesterday through tomorrow. Really can't wait to see what the judges think.

The 2019 and 2018 were almost night and day to my taste and I don’t remember getting the musty oxidized smell or taste in the 2019. The ’19 had nice dark fruit with a solid acid backbone running through it that I really liked. I wonder what the variables were between the two that could have made a difference: fermentation temperature, pH, TA, yeast, storage temperature, blend, etc.? Or vineyard particulars like rain/irrigation, fertilizer, GDDs…? Excited to hear about your competition results!

 

[mainshipfred]

The 2019 and 2018 were almost night and day to my taste and I don’t remember getting the musty oxidized smell or taste in the 2019. The ’19 had nice dark fruit with a solid acid backbone running through it that I really liked. I wonder what the variables were between the two that could have made a difference: fermentation temperature, pH, TA, yeast, storage temperature, blend, etc.? Or vineyard particulars like rain/irrigation, fertilizer, GDDs…? Excited to hear about your competition results!

Come to think of it the 18 came from Suisan Valley California which I got from CFP Winemakers while visiting family in Pittsburg. Would have not remembered if you hadn't brought it up. The 19, 20 and 21 are from Virginia.

 

[balatonwine]

My samples have a strange nose almost funky, dull, dusty, no fruit, maybe even a whiff of kerosene.

First is to consult your favorite aroma wheel. I am attaching one below. In this one, "kerosene" is considered "mineral". In other wheels they may be called "chemical" or "petroleum".

Some consider any "chemical" bouquet a flaw. Others do not. In the wheel below, it is not a fault.

I once tasted a wine that smelled like an oil refinery (very tar evidence), but the wine maker was very proud of it (a large winery in CA by the way). In fact, the wine was quite good otherwise. So often it is simply a matter of personal preference. You may not like the bouquet, but others might.

 

[winemaker81]

I once tasted a wine that smelled like an oil refinery (very tar evidence)

This reminds me of a wine I had in the NY Finger Lakes -- the wine smelled of burned rubber, as if someone was burning a tire. H2s is the only thing I've smelled that it worse.

I love the aroma wheel -- thanks for posting.

 

[balatonwine]

This reminds me of a wine I had in the NY Finger Lakes -- the wine smelled of burned rubber, as if someone was burning a tire. H2s is the only thing I've smelled that it worse.

Burned rubber is not the same bouquet as "tar". Very different. Burned rubber is from mercaptans, and from sulfur issues in the wine. While "tar" is actually more earthy. Subtle. Very different. And actually not unpleasant. Simply.... "odd", as it is very rarely found in wines.

I grew up and lived in CA for over 3 decades, from the LA tar pits, the Richmond refinery, to the Long Beach oil fields (where I actually did part of my MS research), I have smelled a lot of petroleum. Burt rubber is very different.

 

[winemaker81]

Burned rubber is not the same bouquet as "tar".

Very true. In this case, your comment simply spurred the memory -- not a pleasant one! Your explanation solves the mystery as I had no idea what could produce that aroma. Thanks!

 

[Steve Wargo]

First is to consult your favorite aroma wheel. I am attaching one below. In this one, "kerosene" is considered "mineral". In other wheels they may be called "chemical" or "petroleum".

Some consider any "chemical" bouquet a flaw. Others do not. In the wheel below, it is not a fault.

I once tasted a wine that smelled like an oil refinery (very tar evidence), but the wine maker was very proud of it (a large winery in CA by the way). In fact, the wine was quite good otherwise. So often it is simply a matter of personal preference. You may not like the bouquet, but others might.


View attachment 80639

Thanks for posting the wheel.

 

[Snafflebit]

Just putting the idea out in the open. Could the kerosene smell be TDN (1, 1, 6, -trimethyl-1,2-dihydronapthalene)? The odor can be found in Riesling most commonly.