ambitions to expand (a little) - barrel fermentation

[back2it]

I have just taken on a second allotment and plan to fill it with blackberry and elder flower/berry plants. This will take a while (about 2 years) to realise especially as I will propagate rather than buy the plants and I plan to ferment in larger batches with the fruit from these allotments.

I have been reading the thread(s) about larger batches and see that 55 gal (200 ltr) drums are popular but also see that there are unique problems associated with them, especially temperature control, both heating and cooling.

I can get smaller barrels (which are actually quite cheap) and am thinking of experimenting with either 60 ltr or 120 ltr barrels to get used to the process before I get to my full harvest potential.

My question or rather what I am looking for is information/examples of the warming/cooling systems used for these larger batches. I already have an inkbird that I use for my fridge fermentations and will use that as a controller.

Also, do you secondary/age in carboys or other vessels? I think that I could secondary/age in smaller barrels depending on primary qty but concerned about headspace.

Thank you

 

[BarrelMonkey]

I have just taken on a second allotment and plan to fill it with blackberry and elder flower/berry plants. This will take a while (about 2 years) to realise especially as I will propagate rather than buy the plants and I plan to ferment in larger batches with the fruit from these allotments.

I have been reading the thread(s) about larger batches and see that 55 gal (200 ltr) drums are popular but also see that there are unique problems associated with them, especially temperature control, both heating and cooling.

I can get smaller barrels (which are actually quite cheap) and am thinking of experimenting with either 60 ltr or 120 ltr barrels to get used to the process before I get to my full harvest potential.

My question or rather what I am looking for is information/examples of the warming/cooling systems used for these larger batches. I already have an inkbird that I use for my fridge fermentations and will use that as a controller.

Also, do you secondary/age in carboys or other vessels? I think that I could secondary/age in smaller barrels depending on primary qty but concerned about headspace.

Thank you

If you're planning to ferment in barrel, any temperature control will be based on control of the ambient environment - so the room/closet or other space in which your barrels will be located. I'm not aware of anyone using heating/cooling devices with (wooden) barrels.

Barrel fermentation can certainly add character to your wines, just be aware that a barrel is an ongoing commitment even when (especially when!) you don't have it filled with wine. You'll probably want to have a means of cleaning it between fermenting/aging wine, and a way of storing it so that it isn't attacked by undesirable microorganisms. Burning sulfur sticks/pellets on a regular basis is a popular option; steam cleaning is great, though a bit harder to implement on the home winemaking scale.

Depending on what wine you make I'd favor aging in the same vessel in which you fermented - of course you'll have to get the extra top-up wine from somewhere, maybe consolidate 2 barrels into 1, or a separate non-barrel fermentation? You'll also have to plan on topping the barrel - I top my barrel on a monthly basis, and juggling the leftover topping wine (in terms of vessels with minimal headspace) is one of the real challenges.

 

[winemaker81]

@BarrelMonkey, how do you ferment and age fruit in the same barrel? I'm visualizing getting fruit into a 55 liter (14.5 US gallon) barrel, and even worse, getting it out. If one end is out (which makes for easy add/remove), how does one age in that while avoiding oxidation? I admit I may be totally missing your point.

My barrels are neutral (oldest built in 2010), so bulk aging for extended periods is not a problem -- I add oak cubes to provide oak flavor. However, if I was to ferment in them, that's going to differ greatly from fermenting in a new barrel.

The past few years I've been fermenting with oak shreds/chips, which AFAIK provides the same benefit as fermenting in oak barrels.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

@BarrelMonkey, how do you ferment and age fruit in the same barrel? I'm visualizing getting fruit into a 55 liter (14.5 US gallon) barrel, and even worse, getting it out. If one end is out (which makes for easy add/remove), how does one age in that while avoiding oxidation? I admit I may be totally missing your point.

Different protocols for red vs white... For white wine (which I admit was what I was thinking here), there's no fruit, just juice. For reds, you can take the head off the barrel, ferment in barrel, rack out and then (after suitable cleaning) put the head back on. I concede that this is a bit much for most of us home winemakers! In either case, of course there will not be enough wine from the fermentation to fill the barrel so it will have to be made up from another source - as I said, either consolidate 2 barrels into 1 or use wine from a separate ferment.

On a commercial scale I have fermented red wine in open top puncheons (500L, or ~132 gal) and gone back into the same vessel (after the head is back on) with the above approach. A puncheon holds about 1/2 ton of grapes, so enough wine to fill about 1/2 a puncheon - alternatively, that's about the right amount to fill a standard 60gal barrique.

 

[winemaker81]

Different protocols for red vs white... For white wine (which I admit was what I was thinking here), there's no fruit, just juice. For reds, you can take the head off the barrel, ferment in barrel, rack out and then (after suitable cleaning) put the head back on. I concede that this is a bit much for most of us home winemakers! In either case, of course there will not be enough wine from the fermentation to fill the barrel so it will have to be made up from another source - as I said, either consolidate 2 barrels into 1 or use wine from a separate ferment.

On a commercial scale I have fermented red wine in open top puncheons (500L, or ~132 gal) and gone back into the same vessel (after the head is back on) with the above approach. A puncheon holds about 1/2 ton of grapes, so enough wine to fill about 1/2 a puncheon - alternatively, that's about the right amount to fill a standard 60gal barrique.

Thanks! That makes sense.

I'm not seeing value in barrel fermentation vs fermenting with oak adjuncts. The oak adjuncts are single use, so they're always fresh, while a barrel is neutral after ~3 uses. Anything I'm missing in this picture?

Bulk aging in barrel vs. aging with oak adjuncts is quite different, due to evaporation through the barrel.

@back2it, I successfully sidetracked your post on the second reply!!!

Getting back on track ... I ferment in 32 gallon Brutes (120 liters) in my cellar, which is typically 62 to 68 F (17 to 20 C) in the fall. I don't use any temperature control, but I do make overnight starters so the yeast is rollicking along when I do the inoculation the day following crush. My batches are 144 lb (4x 36 lb lugs, 65 kg) for manageability.

After pressing, I put the wines in glass (carboys & large demijohns) for 2 to 3 weeks to clear, then move wine into 55 liter class barrels.

I say "55 liter class" as barrels are handmade and rarely have the same volume. My oldest two are supposedly 54 liter, and that's fairly close. The newest one is supposed to be 56 liters, but I think it's about 60.

I experience about 10% volume loss over a year so I plan to start with at least 16 gallons (61 liters). All excess above what fits initially in the barrel goes into glass.

You're making non-grape fruit, but once the pressing is done, there's no practical difference between the batches.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

I'm not seeing value in barrel fermentation vs fermenting with oak adjuncts. The oak adjuncts are single use, so they're always fresh, while a barrel is neutral after ~3 uses. Anything I'm missing in this picture?

For sure, you're not going to get oak influences in a neutral barrel, but winemakers i've worked with like fermenting in oak for the temperature control - in general, oak barrels don't run too hot or too cold. But this is obviously variable dependent on varietal and style of wine (and how well you can control your cellar/fermentation room temperature).

 

[Rice_Guy]

A different read;

blackberry and elder flower/berry plants.
larger batches and see that 55 gal (200 ltr) drums are popular .
of experimenting with either 60 ltr or 120 ltr barrels to get used to the process of the warming/cooling systems used for these larger batches. I already have an inkbird that I use for my fridge fermentations and will use that as a controller.

* Drums as 55 gallon blue or white plastic food grade are available in the US, also the smaller ones as 30 gallon exist in white plastics . I remove the lid and use them on a variety of functions. The 100 years ago traditional wooden barrel is heavy and hard to clean, I assume you are not saying wooden on the primary. As noted, there isn’t really good way to cool a wooden barrel. Plastic can be soon by placing in a kiddie pool with jugs of ice or in an open top plastic sometimes folks float a milk jug of ice.
A larger container will hold more heat, for radiating heat four smaller containers is more effective. Fermentation is energy releasing, it could get hot.
* Wood is a suitable material for storage of wines. Food grade plastic has oxygen transmission, I wouldn’t use it on a secondary. Secondary should follow ambient or room temperature. I encourage you to practice, you won’t really see the problems till you play a bit.
* I like the ink bird on a fridge or an electric band heater. I haven’t tried it but I could see creating a coil of plastic tubing and running tap water in it. The inkbird could control an on off solenoid. BUT ice sounds easier and more efficient.
* where I am free fruit is possible to get. As a farm kid I am amazed how many city folks plant something but never think through how much work harvesting and using is. ,,, You could experiment sooner than two years.

 

[back2it]

There are a few things I got from the above which are really helpful for me.

I need to start thinking about environmental control rather than about individual vessels and my probable primary issue will be cooling, not heating but I will experiment.

a barrel is an ongoing commitment

I think this puts me firmly in the plastic barrel arena for primary which means thinking about secondary a little more. Probably carboys but I will need a few more, and starting with smaller wooden barrels/caskets to learn how to handle them. I don’t want to ruin a large batch because of inexperience but don’t mind losing a smaller batch to learn.

I have again fallen lucky and met a group who are giving up the hobby and divesting themselves of equipment, so hopefully something will come of that. The more effort I put into this, the luckier I seem to get.

I successfully sidetracked your post on the second reply!!!

That’s OK, it is all good information.

but I could see creating a coil of plastic tubing and running tap water in it

I like that idea; I need to think how to implement it. Probably put a coil inside the barrel as I'm not sure if my wife will like me using it on her nice wooden floors. Maybe I need to move into the outbuilding which brings me back to heating and insulation (and cost).

You could experiment sooner than two years.

I’m already experimenting as I am foraging for black and elder berries and the reason I’m planning for two years for my own production is because Blackberry is two years to harvest and elder will also probably take two years from cuttings. I can always continue foraging and I have time.

I like the ink bird on a fridge or an electric band heater

I do the primary ferment in the garage and in my climate I need both heating and cooling as the temp fluctuates between +30c to -6c depending on the time of year.

Thanks everyone, good info.

 

[Rice_Guy]

* The nicest winery I have seen is a free standing walk in restaurant cooler which was reassembled in a warehouse (@mainshipfred ). It is cooled by an air conditioner so fairly uniform temperature. If I did this I might use 5 or 10 cm foam board as walls.
* You started with blackberry and elder flower. This brings up tannins. Oak/ traditional wooden barrels are good for wines with lots of tannin. The slow penetration of oxygen through oak into wine will polymerize tannin taming down astringent and bitter flavor notes making a more drinkable wine. (micro oxidation) Fast addition of oxygen will cause the oxidation of alcohol as well as tannin. The end result will be sharp burn in the throat flavors.
A HDPE barrel will copy micro oxidation in done in an oak barrel. What kind of used barrels?
* Elder flower is low tannin. Elder berry is high tannin (bitter flavors). Blackberry has lots of polyphenols so it will survive some micro oxidation. Red grape/ vinifera will survive micro oxidation. In general white grape has low tannin therefore will not survive. Traditional apple like Ellis Bitters has lots of tannin so needs micro oxidation. I like astringent flavor tannin without the bitter, as Frequin Rouge apple or blackberry. ,,,, ie Some wines are better in a stainless tank without micro oxidation/ know your fruit.
* The best batch size is the sealed container you have. The next best batch size is a container to be able to rack down from the first container. For the hardware I have collected that means a three gallon racks into a ten liter; OR a six gallon transfers into a five gallon. I expect to lose 2cm / 4cm of lees (gunk) when racking. Tall shapes make cleaner racking. ,,, Oxygen is the enemy of ethyl alcohol. Bag in box films have low oxygen transmission rate and are a neat way to store topping off wine without the headspace in glass bottles.

 

[winemaker81]

For sure, you're not going to get oak influences in a neutral barrel, but winemakers i've worked with like fermenting in oak for the temperature control - in general, oak barrels don't run too hot or too cold. But this is obviously variable dependent on varietal and style of wine (and how well you can control your cellar/fermentation room temperature).

I've learned several new things in the past few days. Cool!

In addition to direct information, Ray's take that overall environment control is key is, well, key. IMO we're best served by viewing winemaking from several points of view, including environment and individual batch. It all relates.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

Bag in box films have low oxygen transmission rate and are a neat way to store topping off wine without the headspace in glass bottles.

This is a great idea! I am always fretting about how to store my small (~1gal or less) topping wine/scraps with minimum headspace. Is there a specific brand you'd recommend?

 

[back2it]

The nicest winery I have seen is a free standing walk in restaurant cooler

I can't afford one of those, and it wouldn't fit under my stairs anyway I could handle the foam boards though

Elder flower is low tannin. Elder berry is high tannin (bitter flavors). Blackberry has lots of polyphenols so it will survive some micro oxidation. Red grape/ vinifera will survive micro oxidation. In general white grape has low tannin therefore will not survive. Traditional apple like Ellis Bitters has lots of tannin so needs micro oxidation. I like astringent flavor tannin without the bitter, as Frequin Rouge apple or blackberry

I have seen you mention astringency on more than one occasion and I have to agree as the last (and only) blackberry I made was a real hit ( and not just with me), so much so that I have been forced to tell everyone that I have none left This is what I will aim for.

I am leaning towards a 60 litre Open Head Drum Barrel for my first step, this way I can fill two carboys and then take @Rice_Guy idea of the Bag in Box for the rest to use as top-up as @BarrelMonkey suggested. It seems like a good way to manage oxygenation.

The carboys I use take 25.5 ltrs to top right up, and I figure that the barrel will max out at 55~57 ltrs for fermentation purposes, unless I top it up part way though fermentation, and that should leave me with about 2~3 ltrs or more for topup at a later date. I already have a super long racking cane but I'm thinking that a spigot may be of more use here. Another option is to put a 3 cm spike on the end of the racking cane so that I can just prod it all the way down to the bottom and it will avoid most of the gross lees. Just thinking out loud here.

As ever, thanks.