An experiment in cold-soak maceration..

[bein_bein]

In the summer of 2012 I got 70lbs of blueberries, so I did a little experiment. I know that some wines are made using a cold-saok maceration to extract more color and flavor from the skins (as I understand it ) So I made two identical batches of blueberry wine, with the exception that one batch was put through a my version of cold-saok maceration. For the batch I crushed the berries, stuck them in the fridge and let them set for 4 days. After 4 day I crushed the other batch of blueberries and began the winemaking process. So here are the two batches as of today. I just backsweetened and added the clarify agents. I'm not going to tell you which batch is which...not yet anyways but here the are, which do you think is which and why?





p.s. one also has more of a blueberry taste to it...

 

[JohnT]

I assume that the cold soaked had more exposure to skins. This would make it darker. There is no doubt, the darker one was cold soaked!

 

[RegionRat]

That looks great. I read an article about a month or so about Cold-Soak Maceration. I guess I will be doing it in the future.

Thanks for sharing

RR

 

[bein_bein]

LOL... as of this date/time there have been 40 people that have read the thread, but only 3 bothered to vote...lol (thank you participants )

I assume that the cold soaked had more exposure to skins. This would make it darker. There is no doubt, the darker one was cold soaked!

yeup , that was my exact reason for trying the cold-soak in the first place.


I won't keep those of you who voted in suspense, unfortunately everyone was wrong (insert irritating buzzer sound here)

I was very surprised as well. JohnT echoed my thoughts and intents for the cold maceration... to get a deep dark wine with nice strong blueberry flavor. So I guess I was just as wrong lol
I tagged each carboy so I wouldn't lose track of who was whom in the process..



The cold-soak has less color AND a barely perceptible decreased blueberry flavor. Sooo...any thoughts on why the cold-soak seems to have restricted impartation of color and flavor..?

 

[GreginND]

After cold soak, they were treated exactly the same? Fermentation was done at the same temp with the same yeast, etc? Besides the color and slightly decreased blueberry flavor, are the flavors otherwise different?

And, one more question, are you sure you haven't mixed up the tags along the way? Just checking.

 

[s0615353]

I knew there was a trick to this...

 

[bein_bein]

After cold soak, they were treated exactly the same? Fermentation was done at the same temp with the same yeast, etc? Besides the color and slightly decreased blueberry flavor, are the flavors otherwise different?

And, one more question, are you sure you haven't mixed up the tags along the way? Just checking.

yup... started the same day, same yeast, side by side the whole time... No other differences other than the 'robustness' of the fruit flavor.and I'm 99.99998253% sure the tags never got mixed up since I did all the racking and transferring. I almost wish I could say that they were probably switched...that would at least make the hassle of doing the cold-soak worthwhile...lol

 

[RegionRat]

Here is the article read. Sorry to say but your results confuse me.

http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/coldsoak.htm

RR

 

[bein_bein]

Here is the article read. Sorry to say but your results confuse me.

http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/coldsoak.htm

RR

Don't be sorry... they confuse AND disappoint me... lol

 

[s0615353]

After the cold soak, did you let the must get back to room temperature before pitching the yeast. If not, maybe the cold start could be the reason for the poor extraction. If not, I am out of ideas.

 

[Bacci]

assuming you added water to the crushed berries, did you pour warm to hot sugar/water over the non soaked batch. Adding the hot/warm sugar water process seemed to extract more color from my previous batches

 

[bein_bein]

After the cold soak, did you let the must get back to room temperature before pitching the yeast. If not, maybe the cold start could be the reason for the poor extraction. If not, I am out of ideas.

Yes I did. I always let my must sit 24hrs before pitching yeast. That's just something I have gotten into the habit of doing, especially with fruit wines, so that the pectin can do its thing before fermentation starts....

 

[JohnT]

It is more likely that one of couple of things happened here...

1) The amount of skins in each batch varried.
2) The "ripeness" of the skins in each batch varried.
3) you made a simple mistake in tagging the carboys (or perhaps someone is playing a joke on you). you say that you are 99.99998253% sure, so I take it that there is room for doubt.

In a controlled environment, longer exposure to skins always equals darker color. Obviously, something is at play here.

 

[RegionRat]

It is more likely that one of couple of things happened here...

1) The amount of skins in each batch varried.
2) The "ripeness" of the skins in each batch varried.
3) you made a simple mistake in tagging the carboys (or perhaps someone is playing a joke on you). you say that you are 99.99998253% sure, so I take it that there is room for doubt.

In a controlled environment, longer exposure to skins always equals darker color. Obviously, something is at play here.

I have to agree.

RR

 

[bein_bein]

assuming you added water to the crushed berries, did you pour warm to hot sugar/water over the non soaked batch. Adding the hot/warm sugar water process seemed to extract more color from my previous batches

Did not add any liquid to the cold soak, crushed the berries then let them soak in the fridge at 40-42deg for 4 day. When I made the two batches of wine at the same time I did the same as always, added water that was room temp, since I use bottled water for all my wines. Then pitched the yeast in both 24hrs later.

It is more likely that one of couple of things happened here...


1) The amount of skins in each batch varried.
2) The "ripeness" of the skins in each batch varried.
3) you made a simple mistake in tagging the carboys (or perhaps someone is playing a joke on you). you say that you are 99.99998253% sure, so I take it that there is room for doubt.

In a controlled environment, longer exposure to skins always equals darker color. Obviously, something is at play here.

well (he said as he hiked up his britches..) can't be #1 or #2 because all the berries used for these two wines, plus the blueberry port I made (70 lbs all told) all came from the blueberry farm, processed the same day. My nephew worked there and these are the berries they sell to juice makers because they would be over ripe by the time they get to market. And I know I didn't get the tags switched.
I did get this as one plausible reason from another source;

Just for fun I'll go contrarian and say the lighter one was cold soaked. The extended storage after maceration caused some of the pigment to be lost due to a lack of stabilizing components when the pigments were released. I'm also guessing this way because I've made blueberry wine before without extended maceration and it was darker in color than the light one.

so there ya have it... not sure if the way I did the cold soak is how it's done with grapes...but I do know that the way I did it does nothing for blueberry wine...

 

[GreginND]

Well, with grape wines we don't typically add water so crushing and soaking is what they do. They might add something like opti-red to the cold soak to help extract colors and flavors.

Did you add any pectic enzyme or other enzymes to your cold soak? I would think pectinase and some water might make a difference.

 

[bein_bein]

The only thing added to the crushed berries prior to cold soak was a campden tab. Plan is to get berries from the same source this year, maybe I will repeat the process with the addition of pectic enzyme and water.... or I'll just make a bigger batch of blueberry port!!

 

[GreginND]

I did get this as one plausible reason from another source;

As a chemist, I'm not sure I'm convinced about this. The color compounds (anthocyanins) are very similar in grapes and blueberries and they are not particularly unstable. That is, I don't think they need anything special for their stability. The are affected by acid and pH changes toward alkaline changes the color. But I don't think that is an issue here.

I wonder, did you observe if the gross lees were darker in color with the cold macerated batch?

 

[bein_bein]

Didn't really pay that much attention, so I can't say with any surety..

 

[bein_bein]

Here's a more in-depth explanation... way over my head

The reason is likely the high quantity of monomeric anthocyanin available preferment. These are fairly reactive and will bind to any number of phenols including themselves. There are specific compounds (protiens IIRC) that also bind anthocyanin and precipitate out of the must. If the phenolic levels are low early in the ferment, this would leave the anthocyanin nothing but precipitable compounds to bind with.